Hell

[stallion90]

Just got my scimater lk6 for the fourth time. Don't use stupid amounts of benes either. Went from 4-6 today in 3 benes. No Eff luck luck. Seems easy enough to me

 

[ziiid]

Let's be serious here for a second, the real issue isn't SS or Luck it's the fact that these bosses are soloable. If they required a lot of people to kill then there would be less people to door block, SS wouldn't be such an issue for most because they can't kill the bosses solo no matter how fast they get there. It would solve a whole number of problems & make the game far more interesting for the majority of players. I would rather a mass brawl at a boss than all this door blocking bullshit that happens from both sides, the bosses should be made significantly harder or at the least have their HP increased to the point that one person couldn't possibly carry enough pots to solo it.

SS does undoubtedly need looking at especially now we're at a point where the top end sins can one or two hit even 48+ warriors, either nerf their damage or their mobility or do a health pool increase across the board. This is all achievable in a number of ways, reduce double slash damage, put a cooldown on SS or give every class greater HP increases per level for every level past 45 perhaps. Just some suggestions.

Think your right regarding PvP and potentially increased hp scaling or a % damage reduction against players or something else to solve the problem. Putting just sins in that box though is just plain naive. Wizards have been able to 1 hit (easily 2) from range without having to move or aim for quite some time. The warrior can do just as much damage while taking twice as much. Archers can 1 hit nearly everyone and have a skill almost identical to shs. Who knows on monks. Taos can't 1 hit but there good in there own right.

The damage to mitigation ratio is currently skewed and continually getting worse. The balance isn't too bad and with a pile of new skills as mentioned by Sam this could change very soon.

The luck argument is actually silly, it currently favors monks, wizards and taos because of the DC gap. It is accessible to anyone.

 

[horton]

I'm not too fussed about only being 1 area it's just the fact that a boss that can drop things such as FF and SOWG can be soloed by 1 player while he is completely safe with his guild blocking the cave off from everybody else

LOL
now everyone will want to go and Forsaken will get even less chance at it.

 

[CantTouchThis]

Luck isnt just as obtainable for all classes. Yes, technically every class could try lucking fate weapons but not every class sacrifices the same number of stats for these weapons. Even going for lower luck than 7, it's not even across the board if you compare like-for-like weapons due to the dc gap. As an example, BoMs are easier to luck than SoWGs, the 50 sin weap is easier to luck than the 50 warr wep etc. This was fairly common knowledge i thought.

 

[ILovePie:D]

Luck isnt just as obtainable for all classes. Yes, technically every class could try lucking fate weapons but not every class sacrifices the same number of stats for these weapons. Even going for lower luck than 7, it's not even across the board if you compare like-for-like weapons due to the dc gap. As an example, BoMs are easier to luck than SoWGs, the 50 sin weap is easier to luck than the 50 warr wep etc. This was fairly common knowledge i thought.

I lose 30 dc switching to luck7 fates.
Wizards And Taos lose what? 10?

Sins always had good average hits, ie higher base, less top end. Warriors were always about the high damage hits.

Warriors are great with luck7 dswords which are just as easy to luck up.

There is no arguement, just jealous people.

 

[CantTouchThis]

And a warrior would lose 47 switching to a fate, but thats not the point im trying to illustrate really.

Of the two melee classes, sin weapons are easier to luck than warrior weapons, meaning the chance of warriors getting those big hits that people keep referring to are slim. Using the fate sword/d sword argument as a win-all wont work for this point - luck4 or 5 on a 43 sin wep, for example is much easier than on a sowg. Likewise with the 50 weps, as we've demonstrated.

Also a sin constantly hitting over 200 with DS and the ability to crit harder than a warrior can flame sword to me sounds like more than 'a good average', rather that sins considerably out damage warriors.

 

[HarryH]

Luck isnt just as obtainable for all classes. Yes, technically every class could try lucking fate weapons but not every class sacrifices the same number of stats for these weapons. Even going for lower luck than 7, it's not even across the board if you compare like-for-like weapons due to the dc gap. As an example, BoMs are easier to luck than SoWGs, the 50 sin weap is easier to luck than the 50 warr wep etc. This was fairly common knowledge i thought.

Why don't you ask for your weapon to lose 16 top end DC and gain 10 base DC then? Or wouldn't you like that.. I thought not. They are WORSE weapons, the luck ability is just a by-product of that. There have been 3 luck 5 SoWGs, which has a much larger DC gap than the 50 blades.

 

[ILovePie:D]

And a warrior would lose 47 switching to a fate, but thats not the point im trying to illustrate really.

Of the two melee classes, sin weapons are easier to luck than warrior weapons, meaning the chance of warriors getting those big hits that people keep referring to are slim. Using the fate sword/d sword argument as a win-all wont work for this point - luck4 or 5 on a 43 sin wep, for example is much easier than on a sowg. Likewise with the 50 weps, as we've demonstrated.

Also a sin constantly hitting over 200 with DS and the ability to crit harder than a warrior can flame sword to me sounds like more than 'a good average', rather that sins considerably out damage warriors.

Warriors would also benefit a lot more from luck7, having the higher top end, so surely they SHOULD be harder to luck?

43 weapons - as Harry posts, theres been a few up to luck5.
40 weapons - we've seen a luck6 DSS, and Mirtiger got it to that a couple of times?
50 weapons - You've not used a great deal of benes on yours. when we spoke you said you had used about 30? I've used probably 200 benes to get mine to luck5.

 

[CantTouchThis]

Harry, doesnt DS have a 1.5 multiplier? So the 47 DC on the 50 wep is actually worth 70.5 for DS? They are not worse weapons. Or are we not taking that into account? I thought not.

Shaun, it took 35 ish for luck2. I also heard from a couple of sources it wasnt anywhere near that number of benes for luck5 but obviously neither of us have proof either way.

I realise im fighting a losing battle as with all due respect you are both biased when it comes to sins, but then i suspect i would be too if i had a char that could solo GK :P

 

[ILovePie:D]

Harry, doesnt DS have a 1.5 multiplier? So the 47 DC on the 50 wep is actually worth 70.5 for DS? They are not worse weapons. Or are we not taking that into account? I thought not.

Shaun, it took 35 ish for luck2. I also heard from a couple of sources it wasnt anywhere near that number of benes for luck5 but obviously neither of us have proof either way.

I realise im fighting a losing battle as with all due respect you are both biased when it comes to sins, but then i suspect i would be too if i had a char that could solo GK :P

Rage will also have an effect on luck7 too, but we're not bringing that in either, and as a %age bonus, it's forever going up.

Your source must be good, because I don't publicise every time I use a bene? Harry got luck 5 on them, while I was away, but it took a lot of benes to get to luck4. Went to 3 and back down many times.

Everyone is biased towards their class, yourself included. If a Sin can solo a boss, so can a warrior, on my Sin, I can outpot the regen rate, poisonsword isn't needed.

 

[CantTouchThis]

I think my rage may be broken then as i swear it doesnt give me 50% extra per hit. I also have to keep casting it. I'll drop sam a quick email and get it looked at, in the meantime i guess we can let this one go.

My sources are reasonably reliable yeah.

It's widely known that warriors cannot solo bosses the same as a similarly kitted/levelled sin can and that when it comes to this aspect of PVE sins are absolutely unrivalled, and i think you know this. This discussion has been had before so i dont think it's worth our time going over old ground.

 

[ILovePie:D]

I think my rage may be broken then as i swear it doesnt give me 50% extra per hit. I also have to keep casting it. I'll drop sam a quick email and get it looked at, in the meantime i guess we can let this one go.

My sources are reasonably reliable yeah.

It's widely known that warriors cannot solo bosses the same as a similarly kitted/levelled sin can and that when it comes to this aspect of PVE sins are absolutely unrivalled, and i think you know this. This discussion has been had before so i dont think it's worth our time going over old ground.

Does 1 DC = 1 damage for a warrior? Can you prove that? 1 DC for a Sin = 1.5 Damage. This doesn't mean its hitting 50% extra.

Your argument is that a warrior cannot solo OmaKing (infact they can). What other bosses can't you solo, that a Sin can? They deal similar damage, yet a warrior has 60% more HP at similar levels? Anything Tori can do, Depress can do too.

 

[HarryH]

Doubleslash is 1.45x DC.
Rage is 1.21x at level 3.

The difference between those two I'd say cancel each other out on players and monsters due to AC cutting. Flamingsword max will hit the same as a fatal slash+double slash max hit. The assassins crit isn't controlled like a flamingsword so it can't be used tactically, HOWEVER it can proc back to back if you are lucky which I'd argue easily makes up for that. So the two classes DAMAGE wise are level.

Lucking on warriors/sins is level too taking into consideration fate weapons + dragonsword. If you think that luck 3 does 20% max hits, and luck 5 does 33% max hits. The ability to get luck 5 on 43 blades when maybe you'd only get luck 4 on the SoWG isn't too drastic. It's ONLY luck 7 which is the gamebreaker.

I don't actually know what I'm arguing, or trying to prove :P as it stands I'd say the DPS and burst damage of both classes is pretty much equal including weapon luck. Warriors are tanky and sins are PvE gods.

 

[Tigerspottin]

Have to admit, getting luck 7 for a warrior on a 43 weapon would be crazy. There has been a luck 6 sowg (not mine) and mine has been luck 5 twice. If it got to luck 7, simply drop your speed set, max your dc, pop rage and you'd be one hit FSing practically everyone.

Personally, and it is just anecdotal I appreciate, I have had d-swords that just won't go up, and higher level weps that fly. For example yesterday, sowg was luck 1, bought 3 benes, luck 4.

Luck 7 on a d-sword is bad enough, and in my view entirely comparable with luck 7 fate blades, with both you do have at least one chance to tt, if it were a luck 7 sowg though I don't think you could escape it without tting on sight.

 

[DeeKayDee]

For example yesterday, sowg was luck 1, bought 3 benes, luck 4.

Fk yoouuuuuuuu lol

 

[Tigerspottin]

Fk yoouuuuuuuu lol

Don't worry, give me 10 minutes tonight and I'll have that baby back down to luck 1

 

[CitRix]

It's so refreshing to see a thread on this forum that remains on topic and doesn't become a discussion about warrior vs sin...

Oh wait...

 

[CantTouchThis]

This is too laborious on a phone, however, harry have you done any DPS testing since the DS animation fix to compare before/after?

Shaun, i know warriors can solo OK, my argument was that it's much, much harder and requires much better kit, not just a 43 wep and norm power rings and a tiger necky. Col is another good example, not to mention GK (unless deps soloing GK too now? :P)

 

[Corbu]

Wiz got MB nerfed.
Rage needs a CAP to.(how much DC dose Jeras get from Rage????)

 

[HarryH]

Not been ingame since thursday Jel, it probably means Sin/War do same damage on mobs now, as opposed to just same damage on trainer. Anyway, all bosses are too easy (Y)