War is to OP

[Razarus]

You're arguing that warriors can achieve the same speed as sins. And that sins can't match Warriors DC because of rage and that this is unfair.

Right.

No. I'm saying that neither should be able to match either.

You said that wars have to spend xxx amount of cash and blah blah blah time, effort pain.. to match what a sin get for free, (aspeed8) - as if that is OK... <<< that bit is the issue because it is NOT OK
I said, A Sin cant get what a war gets for free regardless of pain, effort £££ etc etc
The word Cant is the highlight of this line. They CANT and shouldn't and that part of the game is OK.

You are picking holes in your own arguments now Kori, time to give up.



We have both agreed that the stats obtainable break the balance.

That's where the issue lies and that's imo why you think warriors are OP, because all the ones who run about in speed8 etc etc have paid their way to the top.
Underlying issue out of all of this is ££££ ruins the game balance.

why are you still arguing???

 

[Mystickiller]

I worked out the agil/acc equation months ago. Agil / acc = % of chance to hit. So 37 agil vs 21acc = 57% chance of hitting

 

[Koriban]

No. I'm saying that neither should be able to match either.

You said that wars have to spend xxx amount of cash and blah blah blah time, effort pain.. to match what a sin get for free, (aspeed8) - as if that is OK... <<< that bit is the issue because it is NOT OK
I said, A Sin cant get what a war gets for free regardless of pain, effort £££ etc etc
The word Cant is the highlight of this line. They CANT and shouldn't and that part of the game is OK.

You are picking holes in your own arguments now Kori, time to give up.



We have both agreed that the stats obtainable break the balance.



why are you still arguing???

It's like arguing with a brick wall. You've quoted me saying that those who pay2win are better than those who don't, and somehow come to the conclusion that I agree that warriors are OP? Read it again.

Stop smoking whatever you're on as it's honestly not doing you any favours. ££££ ruins game balance, that's a fact. Majority of players who spend ££££ happen to be warriors. If we replaced those warriors with assassins (so lets say there's instead 5 ToriBlacks running around) the problem still remains. Those characters are OP because they've PAID for it. Could be 5 OP wizzies could be 5 OP Sins could be 5 OP warrs, it doesn't matter. When you pump that much cash into your character you're going to be absolutely broken.

Stats of which would usually take you multiple years of playing to obtain and then at that point EVERYONE is "OP" not just the select few we have now.

You're trying to get a class nerfed (and yours indirectly buffed, mr "Balance Connoisseur") because of Pay2Win people, which is outright dumb. If you fail to see this I'm not going to bother arguing with you.

 

[<SOSO>]

Yep, sins should have the a speed cap set much higher (~ 16 ?)..to compensate in speed + agil vs warriors dc and hp
+1 to kori for being honest

 

[squall777]

Its not my concern since i stopped playing this server long long ago but your argument here is stupid.

You have a melee class thats cuts through AC every hit and a class that doesnt. That simply cant be balanced EVER. Has nothing to do with acc/agil/aspeed or whatever. Its just a bad mechanic of "official" mir that every single server team follows for whatever reason.

2 equally kitted war and sins will be like:
137dc with rage for war (supposedly they have higher end dc on weaps again for whatever reason)
100dc for sin

VS 30 ac:
War 274 per double hit
Sin 140 per double hit

VS 50 ac:
War 274 per double hit
Sin 100 per double hit

VS 70 ac:
War 274 per double hit
Sin 60 per double hit.

etc etc etc

This just cant be balanced ever and as mobs/people's ac gets higher with every patch it will just get worse. Now why are you arguing about aspeed its beyond me (for sin to match war dps in the last example he would have to hit 6 times faster! Not have +6 aspeed but actually hit 6 times while war hits once).

Im tempting you to figure out the solution not only for this server but for every server that has balance issues between sin and war ;p

 

[Razarus]

Stop smoking whatever you're on as it's honestly not doing you any favours.
which is outright dumb.

We are full circle again back to your petty name calling and immaturity. Your credibility in this debate has just reached zero.

££££ ruins game balance, that's a fact. Majority of players who spend ££££ happen to be warriors.

why do you think that is? from your arguments - it costs more.. its harder to obtain.. but its an equal playing field when obtained..
so all of the £££ warriors could have been £££sins for half the price? so they ALL have it wrong in thinking that Wars are the better pay to win class.. this is getting better and better,
Why did you recently buy 150mil in gold for your warrior if you could have fully kitted a sin to an equal if not better degree to take on 3 wars toe to toe...???

If we replaced those warriors with assassins the problem still remains.

Euro, No3, Gio, inoob and MrG..
nope problem does not remain.. No3 even tucked tail and started No4 because it was better..

When you pump that much cash into your character you're going to be absolutely broken.

This is where you fall short in this debate.
I'm talking about balance of classes, what they should and should not be able to achieve. Of course pay to win players are going to seem OP against non p2w players. I have never argued that fact.
How far OP is another matter. and accepting "absolutely broken" as though that's ok again highlights your lack of creativity and acceptance for what is and disregard for balance and change.
Warriors have no business attacking at the same speed as an assassin. Its a flaw that was created when the assassin was introduced. You simply cannot have 2 melee classes attacking at the same speed when one is designed to be faster than the other.

You're trying to get a class nerfed (and yours indirectly buffed, mr "Balance Connoisseur")

My suggestion was to Cap Aspeed on a warrior but boost its damage. That is not a nerf that is a balancing technique.
If you have the same DPS how can that be considered a nerf? Oh wait i'm outright dumb.. maybe I should know this..
Also how would "my" class (even though i play all 5) be indirectly buffed? The assassin would not change.. I have not suggested the assassin change.

my point throughout this conversation, a particularly rude conversation from your part I may add, is that class identity is broken with warriors attacking at the same speed as the assassin.

As you have so politely said this argument is pointless as we both have very different opinions, One of us accepts balance the other is extremely greedy and rude about trying to keep imbalance.
I have nothing more to say to you other than I expected better thank a childish tantrum.

See you in guild bud.

 

[Koriban]

Everyone's OP!

Milo decided this thread ages ago, not sure why I tried explaining to you but I suppose there's always hope.

Best of luck, buddy.

 

[Merlin]

Acc+10 on a warr is still only 27accuracy.

Which is still not enough to reach 32 agility, which is standard Agil+ bracers boots and belt + the buff spell.

If we go one step further and wear agil armour and agil necky on Tori, you're now having to deal with 37agility.

Then what?

Seems you've got all the answers, so answer that?

arguing for the sake of arguing, clutching at straws some may say..
Wars rape sins every player knows this, Kori is and will always be class biased Raz, check his cry threads you'll see a pattern, just ignore his ignorance. :RpS_biggrin:

But, it'll all change when BackStab pops ingame

 

[d1craig]

Its not my concern since i stopped playing this server long long ago but your argument here is stupid.

You have a melee class thats cuts through AC every hit and a class that doesnt. That simply cant be balanced EVER. Has nothing to do with acc/agil/aspeed or whatever. Its just a bad mechanic of "official" mir that every single server team follows for whatever reason.

2 equally kitted war and sins will be like:
137dc with rage for war (supposedly they have higher end dc on weaps again for whatever reason)
100dc for sin

VS 30 ac:
War 274 per double hit
Sin 140 per double hit

VS 50 ac:
War 274 per double hit
Sin 100 per double hit

VS 70 ac:
War 274 per double hit
Sin 60 per double hit.

etc etc etc

This just cant be balanced ever and as mobs/people's ac gets higher with every patch it will just get worse. Now why are you arguing about aspeed its beyond me (for sin to match war dps in the last example he would have to hit 6 times faster! Not have +6 aspeed but actually hit 6 times while war hits once).

Im tempting you to figure out the solution not only for this server but for every server that has balance issues between sin and war ;p

Don't sins have an ability that allows them to cut through AC aswell? Flashdash adds the same poison that TDB does. When I play a sin I find it adds yellow poison more than my warrior does.

 

[Razarus]

Don't sins have an ability that allows them to cut through AC aswell? Flashdash adds the same poison that TDB does. When I play a sin I find it adds yellow poison more than my warrior does.

No the yellow effect poison from TDB and FlashDash gives a 20% damage boost while active.
What he means with TDB 1 of the two hits ignores all AC. so as everyone's stats get greater and greater the War will still be able to ignore any amount of AC you mat be able to stack.
It leads to a larger problem at much much later states of the game, I don't think it will be a massive issue on a medrate like this. There are signs of it already when you put a sin against a Magic Shield OmaKingRobe wiz the majority of the damage is negated, even when shield is down you need to be hitting top 30% of your damage to see any decent numbers but at this stage i think its a fair trade off. Wars however cut through that AC and part of that magic shield. still doing decent damage.
But id prefer not go off topic and discuss x or x vs Wiz as that is a separate discussion with a lot of OP opinions and a need for some balance itself.

p.s there is always hope. That two adults can converse without rude snipes and silly petty grudges.

 

[ziiid]

Don't sins have an ability that allows them to cut through AC aswell? Flashdash adds the same poison that TDB does. When I play a sin I find it adds yellow poison more than my warrior does.

Sins lose dps to put the tdb poison on using flashdash where as warriors dont.



The one caveat to the whole agility argument is that yes sins can gear specifically against warriors for pvp, however you have to gear for a stat that does absolutely nothing against wizards, bosses, taos and archers, and is useless for a large majority of monsters as well. It is quite a sacrifice just to make pvp against a warrior doable.

 

[squall777]

What he means with TDB 1 of the two hits ignores all AC. so as everyone's stats get greater and greater the War will still be able to ignore any amount of AC you mat be able to stack.
It leads to a larger problem at much much later states of the game, I don't think it will be a massive issue on a medrate like this.

You are wrong about the impact of what i mentioned on this server. I believe the numbers i used are quite realistic and not ott with gemmed kits, rage, profield (obviously could be slightly wrong since i dont play here but what i say applies to every server)

If you compare the 2 classes you have:
War with more HP
War with more AC
War that cuts through defences

When you have 2 melee classes to balance em pvp wise there is one way and only:
A) 1 class is winning by running arround, hitting like a trunk and playing with cooldowns. AKA the burst dmg class
B) The other class is winning toe to toe battles when both are holding shift if you get me. AKA the constant dps class.

However on mir since the introduction of sins they seem to lose both running arround and standing toe to toe battles on every single server(FH being the only exception) because of the fact war is tankier, is burstier and has better DPS due to TDB.

Its not that hard to balance 2 melees lol. Just put em on equal kit and hold shift then give the losing class instead of the winning one more burst.

 

[Koriban]

You are wrong about the impact of what i mentioned on this server. I believe the numbers i used are quite realistic and not ott with gemmed kits, rage, profield (obviously could be slightly wrong since i dont play here but what i say applies to every server)

If you compare the 2 classes you have:
War with more HP
War with more AC
War that cuts through defences

When you have 2 melee classes to balance em pvp wise there is one way and only:
A) 1 class is winning by running arround, hitting like a trunk and playing with cooldowns. AKA the burst dmg class
B) The other class is winning toe to toe battles when both are holding shift if you get me. AKA the constant dps class.

However on mir since the introduction of sins they seem to lose both running arround and standing toe to toe battles on every single server(FH being the only exception) because of the fact war is tankier, is burstier and has better DPS due to TDB.

Its not that hard to balance 2 melees lol. Just put em on equal kit and hold shift then give the losing class instead of the winning one more burst.

...Except what you've just said does actually happen on here.

I'll throw another screenshot into the mix, just because.



What you're looking at is a Luck+7, Acc+8, DC130, Speed+7 warrior who's paid his way to the top against an Agil34, dc75, Luck7 Assassin who's also paid their way to the top (Not my character, just use it now and then)

Toe to Toe'd me and died instantly. The 5 hits he tried to get off, resulted in all misses.

I'm confident if he had somehow managed to attrue even +12acc (the maximum you can achieve on this game and even this guy who's spent 1000's of pounds doesn't have it) He'd of still lost because what good is all that power if you can't hit the target?

So you see what you've described does actually happen. A warrior has to run around and try to burst the sin, but if he at all attempts (or gets forced) to toe-to-toe he's going to 100% lose the fight.

 

[squall777]

Kori sorry to spoil it for you pal but you are manipulating this thread with weird at best examples.

1) Agility is just a bad mechanic based on full randomness. And especially since no1 ever bothered to explain the formula behind it and the relation it has with acc i wont bother commending on random examples.
2) The fact that a guy who spends rl ingame prefered DC over acc suddenly makes +12 unachievable or harder to get compared to agil?
3) Basing everything on BiS kits isnt exactly realistic. Agility (since its just a % after all) could have not worked at all and the sin could of been 2hitted. That wouldnt mean fk all either since its something only specific ppl can do and not all warriors/sins/wizzies/archers/taos/whatever.

Actually i will stop trying to persuade you that the tanky class cutting through defence is better than the squishy class that doesnt. Just a fast question. Warriors on this server start running away when they see assasins and only fight em when FS on? If so then sorry im wrong.

Edit: Also you are trying to tell me that with 75dc and with that war having at a guess arround 1000hp, 40-50 ac (45 average sounds fair?) and with every DS doing arround 60dmg TOTAL he stood still and died after...20hits with u being full hp?...k

 

[Warlock]

Here's a suggestion.. dont toe to toe.. its not actually a fighting style (until sins came into the game) and take away sun pots... then see what actually happens.

Also ive always found this stupid but put a delay on TDB so its not every hit.

Up the Sins cap to 10.. gives them more speed as nerfing a war to +4 is just stupid as it will ruin a warriors PVE.

You can argue Acc and Agil all day.. its stupid really.. Kori has a point and so does Raz but both of you are looking at it from a biased point of view.

 

[Koriban]

Kori sorry to spoil it for you pal but you are manipulating this thread with weird at best examples.

1) Agility is just a bad mechanic based on full randomness. And especially since no1 ever bothered to explain the formula behind it and the relation it has with acc i wont bother commending on random examples.
2) The fact that a guy who spends rl ingame prefered DC over acc suddenly makes +12 unachievable or harder to get compared to agil?
3) Basing everything on BiS kits isnt exactly realistic. Agility (since its just a % after all) could have not worked at all and the sin could of been 2hitted. That wouldnt mean fk all either since its something only specific ppl can do and not all warriors/sins/wizzies/archers/taos/whatever.

Actually i will stop trying to persuade you that the tanky class cutting through defence is better than the squishy class that doesnt. Just a fast question. Warriors on this server start running away when they see assasins and only fight em when FS on? If so then sorry im wrong.

Edit: Also you are trying to tell me that with 75dc and with that war having at a guess arround 1000hp, 40-50 ac (45 average sounds fair?) and with every DS doing arround 60dmg TOTAL he stood still and died after...20hits with u being full hp?...k

Dunno, but after playing Tori and being able to instantly teleport to a class and kill them instantly, I've decided to make a sin myself lol. I see no issues with either class, I'm not arguing for any class to get changed.

Seeing No4 die in 4 clean double-slashes in that low amount of DC on a sin is enough for me to see the damage potential. I can safely say though that without luck7's, sins aren't anywhere near as threatening.

My point of view as a player of melee classes, perhaps if you played you'd have a better understanding.

 

[squall777]

Dunno, but after playing Tori and being able to instantly teleport to a class and kill them instantly, I've decided to make a sin myself lol. I see no issues with either class, I'm not arguing for any class to get changed.

Seeing No4 die in 4 clean double-slashes in that low amount of DC on a sin is enough for me to see the damage potential. I can safely say though that without luck7's, sins aren't anywhere near as threatening.

My point of view as a player of melee classes, perhaps if you played you'd have a better understanding.

Wont try to argue still im simply an outsider to the server and all i care about is perhaps some things i see wrong for future servers i might actually enjoy.

Where are my maths wrong tho man? Did i use wrong numbers or something? I dont possibly understand how that guy died in 4hits instead of 20. I mean 4 hits wouldnt be enough even if sins cut through AC right? Still would need 6-7 for 1000+ hp with luck7 dc75 let alone vs a war with some decent at a guess AC.

 

[Koriban]

Wont try to argue still im simply an outsider to the server and all i care about is perhaps some things i see wrong for future servers i might actually enjoy.

Where are my maths wrong tho man? Did i use wrong numbers or something? I dont possibly understand how that guy died in 4hits instead of 20. I mean 4 hits wouldnt be enough even if sins cut through AC right? Still would need 6-7 for 1000+ hp with luck7 dc75 let alone vs a war with some decent at a guess AC.

**** knows, but seems every warr seems to die instantly against Tori, let alone other classes.

If it helps you calculate, I used FlashDash on him first. (Yellow poisons them almost 1/1 every time)

So all my damage is x1.5(?) during that yellow poison time. Also I popped an Impact drug during that fight, so you can add 7 dc to what I said.

So 82 DC Luck7 x1.5 damage.

Most likely got a FatalSword proc as well which adds about 150damage ontop of your normal doubleslash (which hits about 120 twice, so 240)

So 240 damage per swing with the chance of 150 extra damage ontop if fatalsword procs.

4 of those hits... yeah I can see him dying - I'm wondering if AC means absolutely **** all against luck7's, because No4 can do the same ridiculous damage to me on my warrior despite having about 60AC with profield.

I'll need to do some tests.

 

[squall777]

Wouldnt make sense AC to be influenced by luck. Also from what i read yellow poison is 1.2x dmg but neway u can test i guess urself ingame. Just with maths and the mir mechanics (that AC matters A LOT vs sin) i know this result is impossible.

Since u are same guild with raz u can test it together probably instead of arguing in forums anyway ;p

 

[Koriban]

Wouldnt make sense AC to be influenced by luck. Also from what i read yellow poison is 1.2x dmg but neway u can test i guess urself ingame. Just with maths and the mir mechanics (that AC matters A LOT vs sin) i know this result is impossible.

Since u are same guild with raz u can test it together probably instead of arguing in forums anyway ;p

I think AC doesn't even get taken into account vs Luck7's. Effectively AC0...

Doing tests to find out.