Discuss.
- Thread starter urbanfox
- Start date
Bunch of savages, religion is a just a tool for war.
Ok fine printing a cartoon that depicts the prophet muhammed with a bomb on his head insulting but really they arent making lives any easier for themselves.
Hate whats your LS rogue called*
Ok fine printing a cartoon that depicts the prophet muhammed with a bomb on his head insulting but really they arent making lives any easier for themselves.
Hate whats your LS rogue called*
The response was totally irrational. They were only cartoons. I mean flushing the Koran down the toilet is a bit more radical. The subject of course on the side of the Danes, is their defence of Freedom of Press/Speech. The original article was a 'litmus' test of sorts, which was made to test the reaction of Muslims.(*important point*)
Firstly I'd like to make it clear that I believe the Danish paper and the subsequent reprints across Europe, had all the rights in the world to publish what they did, but whether it was morally/ethically viable is another question.
The current relationship between the West and East is frictious, and we have enough differences to deal with, without rightist newspapers publishing such inflaming material. Out of 12 satirical pictures only two were deemed insulting to the prophet of the Islamic religion, Mohammed. Apparently they drew him with a turban in the shape of a bomb with a lit fuse, and on the bomb was the Islamic Creed: "There is no God, but God; Mohammed is His Messenger". Now we all know what that was indicating don't we? The other was an image with the prophet in the gateway of heaven, holding off a line of suicide bombers, and saying in Danish: "Stop stop! We've run out of Virgins!" (a mock to the Koranic Verse), which apparently indicates that for the riteous and those who die in battle will recieve 72 Perpetual Virgins for their delight... I will talk about this in a second.
For those who don't know satire is a form of art which aims to redicule things in good humour and used often to make political gestures. Islam decrees that no image of Mohammed or for that case any historical figure should be drawn, in fear that they may become idols of worship, diverting the attention away from the true "Cause" that they believe is God (or Allah [Al-Ilah] - The God). So any image, even one not deemed insulting is forbidden in the first place; this was well known by the Danish editor.
Let's talk about the situation in Denmark first. According to national consensus, post 911, the Danes have skewed towards the right in general meaning that they have become more aware of the issue of immigrating people... more specifically, Muslims. There has been a lot of tension between the two ethnicities (don't flame me, I know Islam isn't a race, since it has people of every race but... you know the typical image of a Muslim - an Arab). The newspaper editor was also well aware of this.
So why create the images in the first place?
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Now around the world. I find that Muslims all over the world have overeacted. In most Islamic countries, the media is state controlled, with the exception of a few more developed countries. Thus, when the news reached Muslims ears, they would have believed it was a state-sponsered insult against Muslims. They need to realise that in a democracy the media is not an organ of the government, and is totally independant. This is why Muslims in general asked the government of the land to appologise, rather than the newspaper alone.
I can't be arsed typing any more until you guys reply, thanks for starting the topic. There's more interesting things though...
I find it appalling that this stupid news article has overshadowed the recent disaster with the ferry sinking in Egypt killing almost 1400 people.
Turin
Firstly I'd like to make it clear that I believe the Danish paper and the subsequent reprints across Europe, had all the rights in the world to publish what they did, but whether it was morally/ethically viable is another question.
The current relationship between the West and East is frictious, and we have enough differences to deal with, without rightist newspapers publishing such inflaming material. Out of 12 satirical pictures only two were deemed insulting to the prophet of the Islamic religion, Mohammed. Apparently they drew him with a turban in the shape of a bomb with a lit fuse, and on the bomb was the Islamic Creed: "There is no God, but God; Mohammed is His Messenger". Now we all know what that was indicating don't we? The other was an image with the prophet in the gateway of heaven, holding off a line of suicide bombers, and saying in Danish: "Stop stop! We've run out of Virgins!" (a mock to the Koranic Verse), which apparently indicates that for the riteous and those who die in battle will recieve 72 Perpetual Virgins for their delight... I will talk about this in a second.
For those who don't know satire is a form of art which aims to redicule things in good humour and used often to make political gestures. Islam decrees that no image of Mohammed or for that case any historical figure should be drawn, in fear that they may become idols of worship, diverting the attention away from the true "Cause" that they believe is God (or Allah [Al-Ilah] - The God). So any image, even one not deemed insulting is forbidden in the first place; this was well known by the Danish editor.
Let's talk about the situation in Denmark first. According to national consensus, post 911, the Danes have skewed towards the right in general meaning that they have become more aware of the issue of immigrating people... more specifically, Muslims. There has been a lot of tension between the two ethnicities (don't flame me, I know Islam isn't a race, since it has people of every race but... you know the typical image of a Muslim - an Arab). The newspaper editor was also well aware of this.
So why create the images in the first place?
-----------------------
Now around the world. I find that Muslims all over the world have overeacted. In most Islamic countries, the media is state controlled, with the exception of a few more developed countries. Thus, when the news reached Muslims ears, they would have believed it was a state-sponsered insult against Muslims. They need to realise that in a democracy the media is not an organ of the government, and is totally independant. This is why Muslims in general asked the government of the land to appologise, rather than the newspaper alone.
I can't be arsed typing any more until you guys reply, thanks for starting the topic. There's more interesting things though...
I find it appalling that this stupid news article has overshadowed the recent disaster with the ferry sinking in Egypt killing almost 1400 people.
Turin
Very good points there Turin, the egypt incedent is definetly a tru tragedy and should be given a bit more consideration.
In my oppinion (which is probably not that well educated because i havent read an awful lot about this) certain Musslim communities are bringing this bad press and anger on themselves. Im fairly sure most suicide bombings were performed by muslim radicals for whatever reason, so someone tries to have a crack at the muslim communities (ill-humoured of course), now i would of thought the logical thing to do would be to express their anger and disgust in a civillised matter but wait............No they didnt they rioted and caused the death of 30 people.
Its just absolutely idiotic, "Your on fire" > "No im not" > *puts more petrol on*.
As you can probably tell im not a believer in religion as its the cause of a lot death.
In my oppinion (which is probably not that well educated because i havent read an awful lot about this) certain Musslim communities are bringing this bad press and anger on themselves. Im fairly sure most suicide bombings were performed by muslim radicals for whatever reason, so someone tries to have a crack at the muslim communities (ill-humoured of course), now i would of thought the logical thing to do would be to express their anger and disgust in a civillised matter but wait............No they didnt they rioted and caused the death of 30 people.
Its just absolutely idiotic, "Your on fire" > "No im not" > *puts more petrol on*.
As you can probably tell im not a believer in religion as its the cause of a lot death.
Bunch of animals, should all be shot on sight. Not worth the fuss.
Euros aren't going to be scared by a bunch of placard waving morons, who form the minority of even those protesting.
EDIT: Peack be apon him :lol:
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg....jpg?x=380&y=285&sig=rC6LH9UfYkzbBUQC..IN1A--
Euros aren't going to be scared by a bunch of placard waving morons, who form the minority of even those protesting.
EDIT: Peack be apon him :lol:
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg....jpg?x=380&y=285&sig=rC6LH9UfYkzbBUQC..IN1A--
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My view is simple, over-reacted. If someone did something about jesus you wouldnt see them burning down places.
Well the point here is that, there is a war going on. Muslims are touchy about their Prophet, since it is a principle of their religion not to even portray him, let alone ridicule him.
Their prophet (i.e. their leader) and therefore their image, was portrayed and generalised as a Terrorist. Thats a direct insult, not a satirical caricature...
They actually find portrayal of Jesus insulting too, but he's not their patron prophet and those images don't get as much publicity. It was actually because of the lack of appologies from the Danes after publishing the images in September 2005, that one of the Imams spread the images to the Muslims around the world, causing the current situation. If Jesus' image is spread around the Muslim world, it will inspire a similar problem. It's just because of all the attention the images have recieved.
Discuss,
Turin
ps - Omg at the whole thing, are they going to calm down or declare war? eesh (watching news)
pps - I would have thought the caricatures would have been illegal, since they're provocative, and inspire race hatred (whether its the West => Islam or the otherway around).
ppps - Note that ,,,
Their prophet (i.e. their leader) and therefore their image, was portrayed and generalised as a Terrorist. Thats a direct insult, not a satirical caricature...
They actually find portrayal of Jesus insulting too, but he's not their patron prophet and those images don't get as much publicity. It was actually because of the lack of appologies from the Danes after publishing the images in September 2005, that one of the Imams spread the images to the Muslims around the world, causing the current situation. If Jesus' image is spread around the Muslim world, it will inspire a similar problem. It's just because of all the attention the images have recieved.
Discuss,
Turin
ps - Omg at the whole thing, are they going to calm down or declare war? eesh (watching news)
pps - I would have thought the caricatures would have been illegal, since they're provocative, and inspire race hatred (whether its the West => Islam or the otherway around).
ppps - Note that ,,,
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Turin said:
Ye, just a little... "touchy" lol
I don't care if they burned the Koran, that kind of behavior is totally unnaceptable. Round em up, put them in jail, and shoot the ones that resist. Peace loving religion my ass.
The funny part is that I was told Denmark was a Christian country and that some prick was suing because the Danish school system doesn't allow time slots for muslims to pray and they don't provide rooms for them to pray... Can't comment on whether that is fact or not.
urbanfox said:
O_o I tried saying that in the politest way possible lol.
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Denmark is a secular state, therefore it shouldn't have religion as part of the education system in the first place. Yet as it does, Muslims have all the rights to sue, if they are descriminated against. I would expect the same if my religion or views were descriminated against.
Well to be fairly honest m8, if you take that sort of view on, you can reflect on Christianity as the worst religion on Earth - fact is its not. Just because Europeans have created more bloodshed than any other continent in recent history doesn't mean that the attitudes of the people is a reflection of its state (populous) religion.
It is apparently (according to a m8) in the Islamic Law (Shari'ah) that you must kill the one that blasphemes in the State. Don't quote me on this, I'll do my research later, when I have time.
Muslims have to realise that they have all the rights to commit their law within their own soveriegn states, but they cannot expect their values to be witheld in any other free country of the West. BUT in this case I still think the Danes should not have produced those images. What is the point? You're being a provocative bully - you know the reaction from past experience, so why stir up trouble? It's just stupid.
Turin
ps - I disagree, burning the Koran is an act of racial/ethnic/religious hatred pure and simple. I would care if it was the Jewish Torah, Christian Bible, Islamic Koran or the Hindu Baghavata... that sort of attitude should not be tolerated in a free society.
pps - Urban m8, how old are you if you don't mind me asking?
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To add a spark of interest, I took the top five popular messages left on the BBC Boards by viewers:
I should be fair and say all of the above are Northern-European dominated messages, non from the USA, Middle-East or Russia/China.
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You know I can't help but feel theres something malicious going on here. I mean why did it take the Muslim world 5+ months to get rowdy? No one was much bothered about it until they became widely publicised. This is definately some sort of provocation at work, I don't know on who's behalf though...
Turin
Turin
They're animals. All of those son's of *****es. They burning down buildings and holding signs thats say behead those who oppose Islam and they're wearing empty suicide bombinb jackets. A little hypocritical? **** yes, let's oppose freedom of speech for everyone but us.
**** happens to every religion and a lot more in frequency compared to Islam, they have no excuse.
Anyone want to know why this is happening in Denmark? Because it wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else.
Want to know who else is to blame? The USA, the EU and every other amn country for being pansys and letting this **** happen.
**** happens to every religion and a lot more in frequency compared to Islam, they have no excuse.
Anyone want to know why this is happening in Denmark? Because it wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else.
Want to know who else is to blame? The USA, the EU and every other amn country for being pansys and letting this **** happen.
- Jul 4, 2003
- 1,032
- 10
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What i want to point out, becuase im sick of reading crap from Muslims is the following.
Why is it ONLY muslims that react this way? Sure every religion has SOME extremist. However from 6 major religions. Muslims, Seihks, Christians, Jews Hindu's and Buddah's its ONLY the ****ing Muslims blowing themselves up. When was the last time you saw a Christian take out a train full of jews? or a Buddhist Monk drive a carbomb into a temple full of Seihks?
Now i know all muslims arent arseholes, infact i know most of them are decent people. I dont mean to insult anyone, or cause major conflict, however what ive said is an undeniable fact. Muslims are moer likely to resort to extremist actions than any other religion.
Im sick of listening to one portion declaring war on the west by blowing themselves up and screaming their bull****, while another part of their religion pushes peace and love. Dont forget the ones who push the "Nobody understands our religion and everyone is against us.
The following statement may contain what some take to be a racist comment, but rest assured it is not, its a fact, and not something i agree with, but is still happening for a reason.
European Countries, including the likes of Britain and Denmark are, and have been for hundreds of years, Christian Communities, and only since the last 50 or less years, have these countries actually had a noticible population of other religions. We have built our school systems, our work systems, our whole basis as a country around the Christian religion.
You may take that as a racist remark, but its the truth, and theres nothing wrong with what we did. Just like other countries will have built the same systems around their own religion. I agree our rulesets need to change and adapt to meet the needs of other religions, but change takes time, I mean ive been to a lot of schools, and most have had 100% christian pupils, if a group of Muslim children join one of them, of course there arent going to be rooms to pray, specific times for them to do so, and so on, this isnt an anti muslim stance, its becuase theyve never ever needed thse measures before.
They need to get you a room, let teachers know your allowed out to pray and so on.
Endnote: I neither endorse, nor support racism, segregation. I am not affiliated with any religion and consider myself a non-conformist. The veiws depicted in the above post are considered to be fact, but will be withdrawn if proven otherwise. I did not intend to insult anyone with my post, or to cause a conflict on these boards or any others, and with this respect this post can be removed if deemed offensive by anyone, and i would only ask for a polite PM to notify me of such removal so that i can avoid this subject matter in future debates,
/Atomicide.
Why is it ONLY muslims that react this way? Sure every religion has SOME extremist. However from 6 major religions. Muslims, Seihks, Christians, Jews Hindu's and Buddah's its ONLY the ****ing Muslims blowing themselves up. When was the last time you saw a Christian take out a train full of jews? or a Buddhist Monk drive a carbomb into a temple full of Seihks?
Now i know all muslims arent arseholes, infact i know most of them are decent people. I dont mean to insult anyone, or cause major conflict, however what ive said is an undeniable fact. Muslims are moer likely to resort to extremist actions than any other religion.
Im sick of listening to one portion declaring war on the west by blowing themselves up and screaming their bull****, while another part of their religion pushes peace and love. Dont forget the ones who push the "Nobody understands our religion and everyone is against us.
The following statement may contain what some take to be a racist comment, but rest assured it is not, its a fact, and not something i agree with, but is still happening for a reason.
European Countries, including the likes of Britain and Denmark are, and have been for hundreds of years, Christian Communities, and only since the last 50 or less years, have these countries actually had a noticible population of other religions. We have built our school systems, our work systems, our whole basis as a country around the Christian religion.
You may take that as a racist remark, but its the truth, and theres nothing wrong with what we did. Just like other countries will have built the same systems around their own religion. I agree our rulesets need to change and adapt to meet the needs of other religions, but change takes time, I mean ive been to a lot of schools, and most have had 100% christian pupils, if a group of Muslim children join one of them, of course there arent going to be rooms to pray, specific times for them to do so, and so on, this isnt an anti muslim stance, its becuase theyve never ever needed thse measures before.
They need to get you a room, let teachers know your allowed out to pray and so on.
Endnote: I neither endorse, nor support racism, segregation. I am not affiliated with any religion and consider myself a non-conformist. The veiws depicted in the above post are considered to be fact, but will be withdrawn if proven otherwise. I did not intend to insult anyone with my post, or to cause a conflict on these boards or any others, and with this respect this post can be removed if deemed offensive by anyone, and i would only ask for a polite PM to notify me of such removal so that i can avoid this subject matter in future debates,
/Atomicide.
Atomicide said:
I agree with most of what you said. The attitude is conditional.
Only a few years ago (well a few hundred years ago) Islam was in its Golden Age, and Europe was living in mud huts...
What I find really scary is that this was the attitude of the Priets prior to the Crusade... "To kill an infidel is not Murder, it is a Path to Heaven" - exact words of Pope Urban or was in Innocent...
Tides to change, and tables turn, it's natural, situations change also. Most Muslim countries having very low population standards, this is what you can expect.
From what I can see, they have a very two-dimensional perspective. They see the "West" as one body. As Urban rightly said, they're chanting "Death to America" again... I mean... ???
That'd give you an idea of how their minds work. America/UK have made a physical war on two Muslim countries in the last five years. They're messing with another country as we speak, and now you got the Danes... alright no problem... you got the French, Spanish, Italians, Germans etc REPUBLISHING the images under a heading:
"Yes we can caricature God..."
If you don't find that provocative, then I don't see what will convince you. It shouldn't have happened, period.
I admit, Muslims do need to get their act together, but this is a direct result of those images trying to stir up trouble when WE WELL KNOW that our image in the Muslim word isn't the best at the moment. In the ideal world, we'd strive for better relations, not worse.
Atomacide, there have been plenty of suicide bombings/terrorist bombings by Sikhs and Hindus in India, guess what? You havn't heard of em eh? Because they're not called Hindu Terrorists, Sikh Terrorists... they're just simple old political terrorists.
Examples?
Hindu on Hindu
Attaked gunmen
Monday Bombings
Forecefull Raids
... loads more. Cept you never see these on the front page.
Notice how they don't get even an milimetre of the publicity Muslims get?
---
That's another topic we could discuss, should terrorists like Osama Bin Laden, be labled Islamic Terrorists, since what they're doing is totally against their creed: "There are four things God will turn his back on, those who divorce, those who murder, those who show spite to parents and those you commit suicide...". In Christianity, suicide'll earn you eternity in Hell without a head.
Discuss,
Turin
ps - In reply to urban's post about Muslim protestors in suicide jackets etc... These are the kind of "Muslims" that do it...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4687996.stm said:
He shouldn't even be called Muslim for dealing drugs (severly against their religion, like Alcohol etc). Anyway, note you don't see doctors or educated persons doing any of this?
Turin
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There is no definite answer on what happens to someone who commits suicide in the protestant sense.
My Father always asks me one thing: I don't care what he/she/they did, what did YOU do?
I think some people in the East need to be asked that question.
My Father always asks me one thing: I don't care what he/she/they did, what did YOU do?
I think some people in the East need to be asked that question.
urbanfox said:
Wise words.
Suicides go to hell
if there is one, at least I hope they do... sorry I mean the vulgar political-terrorist suicides. But... would that include the suffragettes? Meccan Cleric: "When the Hour is nigh, and you stand before your Lord, and he asks you for an explanation, it shall not suffice that ye say: But he did so and so. Your fate is in your own keeping, by the Lord's decree" Quote
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Atomicide said:
The reason Muslims kill themselves and others is because of a testament in their religion; they believe that if the Muslim dies, for any reason, and they think they are doing it to promote Islam, they are taken to heaven. No other religion has this, thankfully. But that's why a very small number of Muslims are bomb-happy.
Other religions strongly demote with suicide, let alone death. In Christian terms it's a sin, not sure about Jewish, the Buddhist religion is against any form of violence.
But I do not believe we should blame religion for a human’s mistake; although if you are going to support Muslim you should be at least sane, if not mentally capable of differentiating between murder and religious law.
God, I feel like I'm playing the devil's advocate here, the argument is so one-directional lol
I'm sorry Valerii, you must back up this statement with some facts. All Abrahamic Relgions (that is Judaism => Christianity => Islam) retain the idea of Suicide as one of the worst sins which will reward you to a one-way ticket into Geh Ben Hinom (Jahanam) or Hell.
Christianity is more of a missionary religion than Islam, because "You can only be saved through Christ...", also unlike Christianity, Islam comes with a ruling system known as the Shariah, whereby under an Islamic state, one cannot be forced into their religion, but awarded the status of Dhimmi or "The Protected". During the same era, under Convert States, like the Holy Roman Empire, whatever the religion of the Emperor, was the religion of the subjects, no matter what. Any other religion was persecuted de facto. Dhimmis are relieved from paying Zakaat (Alms) BUT must pay a contributory tax for their 'protection' and therefore they are exempt from duty... interesting shiz, but I'm afraid no one bothers with history.
I am not advocating the actions of the Muslims in recent years, but nonetheless you're quite right in saying that they're humans and since I'm a secular humanist, I believe whatever the religion, the basic human in every man cannot be stifled completey. You're bound to make mistakes, misconceptions and commit evils.
Discuss,
Turin
ps - I'm not a scholar, but I think I can honestly say I know more about religion in general than any other person on this thread - counter me if you want lol.
pps - ah finally the fker is in jail ^_^
Scary O_O
Valerii said:
I'm sorry Valerii, you must back up this statement with some facts. All Abrahamic Relgions (that is Judaism => Christianity => Islam) retain the idea of Suicide as one of the worst sins which will reward you to a one-way ticket into Geh Ben Hinom (Jahanam) or Hell.
Christianity is more of a missionary religion than Islam, because "You can only be saved through Christ...", also unlike Christianity, Islam comes with a ruling system known as the Shariah, whereby under an Islamic state, one cannot be forced into their religion, but awarded the status of Dhimmi or "The Protected". During the same era, under Convert States, like the Holy Roman Empire, whatever the religion of the Emperor, was the religion of the subjects, no matter what. Any other religion was persecuted de facto. Dhimmis are relieved from paying Zakaat (Alms) BUT must pay a contributory tax for their 'protection' and therefore they are exempt from duty... interesting shiz, but I'm afraid no one bothers with history.
I am not advocating the actions of the Muslims in recent years, but nonetheless you're quite right in saying that they're humans and since I'm a secular humanist, I believe whatever the religion, the basic human in every man cannot be stifled completey. You're bound to make mistakes, misconceptions and commit evils.
Discuss,
Turin
ps - I'm not a scholar, but I think I can honestly say I know more about religion in general than any other person on this thread - counter me if you want lol.
pps - ah finally the fker is in jail ^_^
Scary O_O
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Turin said:God, I feel like I'm playing the devil's advocate here, the argument is so one-directional lol
I'm sorry Valerii, you must back up this statement with some facts. All Abrahamic Relgions (that is Judaism => Christianity => Islam) retain the idea of Suicide as one of the worst sins which will reward you to a one-way ticket into Geh Ben Hinom (Jahanam) or Hell.
Christianity is more of a missionary religion than Islam, because "You can only be saved through Christ...", also unlike Christianity, Islam comes with a ruling system known as the Shariah, whereby under an Islamic state, one cannot be forced into their religion, but awarded the status of Dhimmi or "The Protected". During the same era, under Convert States, like the Holy Roman Empire, whatever the religion of the Emperor, was the religion of the subjects, no matter what. Any other religion was persecuted de facto. Dhimmis are relieved from paying Zakaat (Alms) BUT must pay a contributory tax for their 'protection' and therefore they are exempt from duty... interesting shiz, but I'm afraid no one bothers with history.
I am not advocating the actions of the Muslims in recent years, but nonetheless you're quite right in saying that they're humans and since I'm a secular humanist, I believe whatever the religion, the basic human in every man cannot be stifled completey. You're bound to make mistakes, misconceptions and commit evils.
Discuss,
Turin
ps - I'm not a scholar, but I think I can honestly say I know more about religion in general than any other person on this thread - counter me if you want lol.
pps - ah finally the fker is in jail ^_^
Scary O_O
Most of my knowledge in terms of religion is passed on, things I learnt in school, things my parents/friends have told me. I'm not on a fact finding mission here, so I'll assume you're right and retract my statement.
I've already made it clear I’m not a religious debater. I never took religion past my 9th year at school, due to general dislike for the subject.
For these reasons I won't pursue this discussion any further. Thanks for clarifying my falsification of assumed information though. Sorry if I mislead anyone, you have my family to thank for that!