Longevity of Mir 2

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SPL1FF

Golden Oldie
Golden Oldie
Banshee
Game Master
Mar 24, 2003
520
270
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Hey everyone, creating this thread on the back of a discussion held on a server discord channel last night.

Essentially, the discussion point was about what needs to be done moving into 2023 to preserve the game we all love to keep it alive for many years to come. What changes can be made as a community, through LOMCN, and what do you feel is damaging to the game?

Share your thoughts below!
 

IceSlice

Golden Oldie
Golden Oldie
May 24, 2005
1,179
54
155
Under the Sea :O
p2w aspects of the game, allowing people to get away with botting, allowing gold sellers, allowing levelers to level peoples accounts and so forth for me id say.

i understand server owners need to cover costs, but these days its just mental what goes in game shop its pure greed lol
 

Valhalla

Nexus Mir Developer
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p2w aspects of the game, allowing people to get away with botting, allowing gold sellers, allowing levelers to level peoples accounts and so forth for me id say.

i understand server owners need to cover costs, but these days its just mental what goes in game shop its pure greed lol
This. Allowing cash cows, allowing GM's to artificially inflate their usercounts, allowing gold sellers, and paid levellers. - all of those points need to be assessed by lomcn and banned outright as there is no level playing field anymore. (for players or GM's)

100% server owners need to cover costs however a dedi to host a crystal server is what? £30, maybe £40. website/domain maybe £5/£10 a month. (even then most website hosts offer the first year free). adding £20 items into ur gameshop that expire after 7 days is just outright scammy behaviour.

lomcn is going to be the reason Mir dies in all honesty if nothing is done about the GM's that are clearly only making their servers for a quick cash grab.

Don't even get me started on the whole crypto in Mir2 ****, that should've been shutdown by LOMCN staff before the advert was even published to the forum.
 
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James

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Jan 31, 2010
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P2W is the biggest killer followed very closely by the user count monitoring, everyone who sees a server with inflated UC thinks its good, jumps ship to try it before finding out its crap and just a cash cow after spending too long on it.

commercial aspects need to be kept reasonable or artificial only (cosmetics only), gold trading needs more easily monitored for suspicious transactions (e.g. traded with no item or certain things in return and flagged)
 
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zedina

Mir3 Dev
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Dec 22, 2005
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This. Allowing cash cows, allowing GM's to artificially inflate their usercounts, allowing gold sellers, and paid levellers. - all of those points need to be assessed by lomcn and banned outright as there is no level playing field anymore. (for players or GM's)
Yeah good luck with that. Wait until auto play will be popularized enough so other servers will add it.
 

ipwnu

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Apr 3, 2015
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Every new “feature” created in the last few years has just been a gouge for whales every single time then gets dragged into the next server and the next one.

Completely put me off mir tbh and I’m sure many are the same, any sort of gg rolling should be outright banned. Rolling items for gg was an absolute disgrace, having to spend potentially hundreds of pound just to compete.

We have gone from a game that costs 7.50 a month to gms putting in op gg items so you have to donate 20-30 quid a month, pots that you need to buy every day to compete, letting items be sold in tms for crypto so they can take a cut, then you find out half of them are selling items on top of it. Then on top of that if you play less than 10 hours a day / don’t throw your credit card at the screen you have to compete for bosses with people like mylo and boomslang who play 23 hours a day selling items.

Elite have got it about spot on tbh.
 
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syke

Dedicated Member
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Oct 24, 2011
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Seeing mir turned into crypto. It’s killed it for me. My guild channel are all saying the game is dead if that is the way forward. The cash cows have killed the game and continue to do so. Server owners allowed to host 5-6 servers in any time between 1-3 years. All raking in cash, rumours of being corrupt and all sorts. But that’s fine apparently.

Even arti was it? Tele and cave scrolls were needed to complete, and forced you to pay monthly otherwise you’d spend 20mins running where your guild could teleport lol

Unfortunately mir is a way for coders/GM’s to make money and they love isn’t around much any more.

Elite is the server that has done it right, a VIP system with choice but no way forced p2w like every server going.
 
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Lilcooldoode

LOMCN Developer
Developer
May 10, 2003
2,232
738
360
Yes
The chargeback mindset was the final nail in the coffin for me, it is the sole reason I will never run another server or contribute to the public source code for free again.

I still love the game - but the remaining community is just not one I am interested in contributing towards anymore (apart from very few individuals)
 

Valhalla

Nexus Mir Developer
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Sep 7, 2012
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The chargeback mindset was the final nail in the coffin for me, it is the sole reason I will never run another server or contribute to the public source code for free again.

I still love the game - but the remaining community is just not one I am interested in contributing towards anymore (apart from very few individuals)
That's a point... but i strongly believe that if it wasn't for the stupidly OTT and OP items in a select few GM's gameshops then the whole chargeback issue wouldn't have came about to begin with.
 

zedina

Mir3 Dev
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Dec 22, 2005
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That's a point... but i strongly believe that if it wasn't for the stupidly OTT and OP items in a select few GM's gameshops then the whole chargeback issue wouldn't have came about to begin with.
Do you talk about the one who pats himself on the back screetching "i put respectable long time servers dont throw mud at me" whos the files he uses are the base/near same as another cashcow who failed and now the payment process is crypto to prevent chargebacks after stopping the updates on server and keeping it alive just make it not look like a "made enough money see you on next one" ?
 

zedina

Mir3 Dev
Legendary
Dec 22, 2005
3,168
1
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The chargeback mindset was the final nail in the coffin for me, it is the sole reason I will never run another server or contribute to the public source code for free again.

I still love the game - but the remaining community is just not one I am interested in contributing towards anymore (apart from very few individuals)
You can't compare a Chronicles V2 with others, or Sapphire, I think Jamie had small to none chargebacks.

As long the gameshop is fair there shouldn't be a issue.
 

Lose

Banned
Banned
Aug 13, 2020
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Disclaimer: I have nothing against anyone servers personally and everything is just a matter of personal opinion. I understand the difficulty and sheer amount of time required building a server. In order for me to fully explain my point, I have to bring in my past experience of servers (as a player) and my personal opinion based on what I know today. I have played most of these servers myself, so my opinions are not just from an outside perspective.

I think everyone puts the effort into their servers, but peoples judgement and development direction is clouded.

The Problem?


User Count Bloating + Greed

Why?


The direction that some servers have taken over the past few years is clearly shown in the servers and the features that they focus their time on. To best way for me to describe this is give direct comparisons to ideas that I.. feel are personally destroying this game.

Apocalypse V2 - This servers focus was clearly designed to exploit people with gambling addictions, promoting a new sense of P2W that exploits the vulnerable. Allowing people to spend £1000+ individually on hopes of achieving better gear to compete. This became so excessive that it collapsed on itself, which the players found were unacceptable and recalled.

For some reason, this was spun against the players and LOMCN only agreed with the developers in their clear abuse of this game. It should not be accepted to exploit thousands, I can only assume 50K+ was accumulated from this originally before the recalls. At no point were the players opinions ever listened to and it was always them at blame. The players with real life gambling problems, being exploited who were baited into an addiction.. blame them without discussion? Also they thought £2.40 for an HOUR of double exp was acceptable, they even advertised it as 200% even though it was +100% in a way to falsely advertise it in the store. They acknowledged this, but again no care given and nothing was changed as it didn't benefit their pockets.

We have now their developer/s moving onto a NEW server with the same gambling systems, with a non-refundable system to further exploit people. LOMCN have not closed the previous server and are still allowing the advertisement and forum hosting of a dead, inactive, non-updated server that the developers have decided the best course of action is to make a new one.

Artificial Mir - The user count designs on this from launch were insane, it had no connection limit and the primarily source of gold income was through fishing and mining. As a result of this player were pushed into having around 10 separate connections running to fish in a non-PK safe zone that had storm gems, armour casts (BDAs) and pretty much made you rich doing so. Not to mention all the AFK miners, Blackstone pet farming and excessive expiry items such as the premium dungeons and EXP scrolls that were pretty much required to level to keep up.

As a result of these systems it forced a user count of something stupid like 500. Logging into your Guild Territory, showed there was easily 50 fishers in each one as you couldn't get PK'd in there and people could just make millions daily by not playing. All this was intentionally designed.. this is the important part to remember here.. INTENTIONAL decisions.

Alliance - Intentionally designed fishing INSTANCES, with a player limit or random distribution of players in order to hide the false user counts. This was pointed out to me by a friend who had 5 fishers running on this server. He noticed that all 5 of these were teleported to individual instances which had a limit of 10 people per instance. These instances were non-PK, no @map available and prevented people from grasping a sense of the real user count. That combined with stalls, mining etc.. you have another bloated user count that was INTENTIONALLY designed by the developers.

The list could keep going on stalls, auto-play, crypto mining, auto this.. auto that.. but this all boils down to user count monitoring and how it's shaping the community.

How is this causing the problem?

People in this communtiy generally and primarily move towards the server with the highest user count. I've been a player and now developer and have seen it from both sides. Players require a community, which they cannot decipher what is real or not by looking at MirTracks. This game is now more about jumping between servers for most people, because they feel a server has 'died' when user counts dip or rise on another. They are stuck in a circle of rinse and repeat in hopes of finding a stable Mir2 community, which I feel most are sick of and have moved on already.

We've lost some amazing players in this community already and the ones remaining are on their last straw. Many developers are now focusing their efforts on promoting user count bloating, so they can boast that their server is the most popular in hopes to bring in players and generate more profits.

WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE?

Scrap the user count monitoring on LOMCN MirTracks. Why should a server be promoted to the top for being the highest user count, where as longevity and stability is no longer promoted? Servers like Chrons, Arcadia, Banshee etc who have shown stability and commitment shouldn't be scored based on their user count which we have proved now is fake, bloated and there is no way to PROVE is real.

Someone can simply just write their own user count in the server code, set it to 5000 and there's no way to prove it.. so why are we allowing such a terrible system to be the primary way to promote servers?

When we look at MirTracks, we should be looking at UPTIME and activity from the GMs.

- Last patch/update
- Uptime

These should be more important than a pump and dump server, that has no intention of staying open as long as possible. If they know it's easier to close and re-open another for profits, then this shouldn't be constantly promoted by the LOMCN admins.

The Situation Now!

PUMP AND DUMP features and servers are promoted and no rules or protection is in place by LOMCN. The developers now know it's better to fake it, to make £ as the main source of income for these servers are within the first 2 months. As long as they can pump an insane amount of money into these two months, it'll fund the next server.

Obviously not all the servers have the same problem and are doing this, but some of this is historical and present so the problem for some is already done.


I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion or idea of removing the user count, but it's the only quick way to stop developers from abusing this mentality and forces people to focus of longevity and commitment.

🙏We need change or this community will dwindle even further and we will lose what's left of this nostalgic game to greed of misdirection of development. Please change this admins.. or the developers will have to do something, who are now sick and tired of this.
 

Valhalla

Nexus Mir Developer
Veteran
Sep 7, 2012
1,954
3
453
150
127.0.0.1
Disclaimer: I have nothing against anyone servers personally and everything is just a matter of personal opinion. I understand the difficulty and sheer amount of time required building a server. In order for me to fully explain my point, I have to bring in my past experience of servers (as a player) and my personal opinion based on what I know today. I have played most of these servers myself, so my opinions are not just from an outside perspective.

I think everyone puts the effort into their servers, but peoples judgement and development direction is clouded.

The Problem?

User Count Bloating + Greed

Why?

The direction that some servers have taken over the past few years is clearly shown in the servers and the features that they focus their time on. To best way for me to describe this is give direct comparisons to ideas that I.. feel are personally destroying this game.

Apocalypse V2 - This servers focus was clearly designed to exploit people with gambling addictions, promoting a new sense of P2W that exploits the vulnerable. Allowing people to spend £1000+ individually on hopes of achieving better gear to compete. This became so excessive that it collapsed on itself, which the players found were unacceptable and recalled.

For some reason, this was spun against the players and LOMCN only agreed with the developers in their clear abuse of this game. It should not be accepted to exploit thousands, I can only assume 50K+ was accumulated from this originally before the recalls. At no point were the players opinions ever listened to and it was always them at blame. The players with real life gambling problems, being exploited who were baited into an addiction.. blame them without discussion? Also they thought £2.40 for an HOUR of double exp was acceptable, they even advertised it as 200% even though it was +100% in a way to falsely advertise it in the store. They acknowledged this, but again no care given and nothing was changed as it didn't benefit their pockets.

We have now their developer/s moving onto a NEW server with the same gambling systems, with a non-refundable system to further exploit people. LOMCN have not closed the previous server and are still allowing the advertisement and forum hosting of a dead, inactive, non-updated server that the developers have decided the best course of action is to make a new one.

Artificial Mir - The user count designs on this from launch were insane, it had no connection limit and the primarily source of gold income was through fishing and mining. As a result of this player were pushed into having around 10 separate connections running to fish in a non-PK safe zone that had storm gems, armour casts (BDAs) and pretty much made you rich doing so. Not to mention all the AFK miners, Blackstone pet farming and excessive expiry items such as the premium dungeons and EXP scrolls that were pretty much required to level to keep up.

As a result of these systems it forced a user count of something stupid like 500. Logging into your Guild Territory, showed there was easily 50 fishers in each one as you couldn't get PK'd in there and people could just make millions daily by not playing. All this was intentionally designed.. this is the important part to remember here.. INTENTIONAL decisions.

Alliance - Intentionally designed fishing INSTANCES, with a player limit or random distribution of players in order to hide the false user counts. This was pointed out to me by a friend who had 5 fishers running on this server. He noticed that all 5 of these were teleported to individual instances which had a limit of 10 people per instance. These instances were non-PK, no @map available and prevented people from grasping a sense of the real user count. That combined with stalls, mining etc.. you have another bloated user count that was INTENTIONALLY designed by the developers.

The list could keep going on stalls, auto-play, crypto mining, auto this.. auto that.. but this all boils down to user count monitoring and how it's shaping the community.

How is this causing the problem?

People in this communtiy generally and primarily move towards the server with the highest user count. I've been a player and now developer and have seen it from both sides. Players require a community, which they cannot decipher what is real or not by looking at MirTracks. This game is now more about jumping between servers for most people, because they feel a server has 'died' when user counts dip or rise on another. They are stuck in a circle of rinse and repeat in hopes of finding a stable Mir2 community, which I feel most are sick of and have moved on already.

We've lost some amazing players in this community already and the ones remaining are on their last straw. Many developers are now focusing their efforts on promoting user count bloating, so they can boast that their server is the most popular in hopes to bring in players and generate more profits.

WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE?

Scrap the user count monitoring on LOMCN MirTracks. Why should a server be promoted to the top for being the highest user count, where as longevity and stability is no longer promoted? Servers like Chrons, Arcadia, Banshee etc who have shown stability and commitment shouldn't be scored based on their user count which we have proved now is fake, bloated and there is no way to PROVE is real.

Someone can simply just write their own user count in the server code, set it to 5000 and there's no way to prove it.. so why are we allowing such a terrible system to be the primary way to promote servers?

When we look at MirTracks, we should be looking at UPTIME and activity from the GMs.

- Last patch/update
- Uptime

These should be more important than a pump and dump server, that has no intention of staying open as long as possible. If they know it's easier to close and re-open another for profits, then this shouldn't be constantly promoted by the LOMCN admins.

The Situation Now!

PUMP AND DUMP features and servers are promoted and no rules or protection is in place by LOMCN. The developers now know it's better to fake it, to make £ as the main source of income for these servers are within the first 2 months. As long as they can pump an insane amount of money into these two months, it'll fund the next server.

Obviously not all the servers have the same problem and are doing this, but some of this is historical and present so the problem for some is already done.


I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion or idea of removing the user count, but it's the only quick way to stop developers from abusing this mentality and forces people to focus of longevity and commitment.

🙏We need change or this community will dwindle even further and we will lose what's left of this nostalgic game to greed of misdirection of development. Please change this admins.. or the developers will have to do something, who are now sick and tired of this.
Hit the nail on the ******* head, couldn't agree more and couldn't have worded it any better.
 

syke

Dedicated Member
Dedicated Member
Oct 24, 2011
122
61
55
Also I get the complaints over ‘charge back’ community. But can we honestly say those releasing servers solely designed to make as much cash as they can.

The problem lies within the greed of everyone
 

MasterD

Dedicated Member
Dedicated Member
May 27, 2003
135
53
125
Charge back culture - has been a double sided coin. Developers exploiting players to rinse as much money as possible. Players charging back on every server using the above reason as a smoke screen.

The game is population is so small and some many people try to run servers as a small business. They don't go together in my mind, I only see a handful of Developers now who do it for the love of it. Cover costs, ditch paypal. Elites VIP has probably been an example of how well this can be done.

Crypto - if this becomes the norm in the future, I'll never play again and I'd say most would feel the same.




Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk
 

Valhalla

Nexus Mir Developer
Veteran
Sep 7, 2012
1,954
3
453
150
127.0.0.1
Charge back culture - has been a double sided coin. Developers exploiting players to rinse as much money as possible. Players charging back on every server using the above reason as a smoke screen.

The game is population is so small and some many people try to run servers as a small business. They don't go together in my mind, I only see a handful of Developers now who do it for the love of it. Cover costs, ditch paypal. Elites VIP has probably been an example of how well this can be done.

Crypto - if this becomes the norm in the future, I'll never play again and I'd say most would feel the same.




Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk
Nexus is following in Elites footsteps with the VIP system and completely revamping the gameshop into a hunt store that u can get rewards from just by passively killing mobs

Think there's only 3 servers that are live/in development that are in it for the love of the game and not purely profits
 
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LightBringer

Primordial GM
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Primordial
Game Master
Feb 13, 2014
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After running 2 servers and working on my third and final in a very loose trilogy of servers. I can say I've had a decent amount of exposure to what this has to entail.
I've never been in this community to make money, I've have always done it and continue to do it because I love creating and seeing my works come to life; whilst also bringing a game to as many people as possible for them to enjoy.

I am not going to point out specific servers for these flaws as we've seen many over the years.



GM corruption and greed

Some people create servers to make a profit, instantly that server is destined to die.
If you aren't here to provide a top tier server and continually work on improving and bringing great content that server is going to close sooner rather than later, when the cash stops; the GM team will lose interest as their only drive is gone.

GMs helping their friends is another one, people play Mir for the competitiveness, but you can't compete when a GM is funnelling constant streams of whatever, to his friends.


Lack of Imagination

I think people need to actually look at their servers to see what new elements it brings from previous servers; if it isn't anything new, revamp and rehash until you have at least one unique aspect.
If you don't, you will attract the same people, who love the initial hype of a server, but because there is nothing past that, they leave when a new one comes out.

Take peoples current ideas and revamp them, we're developers, I see it as a honour if someone takes my ideas, it means they were good enough to take!


Charge Back Culture
I agree this is something that as a GM you always are concerned about, as financially you are the one at risk.

Other than a few individuals over my servers, I've never had any issues with charge backs.
I can only make assumptions is because people feel they got their value for what they played, and the servers continued for what they expected.

You can look at servers that had the biggest charge back issues, and the main common factor is, it had predatory game shop items where you could pool £100's - £1000's a month in the game, of course then if the GM 3 months down the line abandons the game or stops continually developing, you're going to feel robbed.


Player Expectations
I understand bug fixes and balance changes need to happen, However players expect it to happen on a whim, on their own opinion of a situation.
Literally no game operates this way; if there is a potential crash issue or a game breaking issue (or even a very over tuned aspect - fireball one shotting) then yes immediate recourse is needed.

Balance changes shouldn't happen every day, bug fixes tend to come in 'sweeps'.
I feel having a direct link to a server developers is really bad, if a developer only ever hears what's going wrong "in their opinion" it can get overwhelming and burn you out.

------
I could go on but @Win has covered some of what I was going to say as well.
------

In Closing

There should be a set of rules in place to help better the server quality out there

I do think the bad tends to shroud Mir and LOMCN more than it should.

There is a ton of support from this community (that I still receive to this day @Sanjian / @Valhalla / @Far (all of the source updates) / @Lilcooldoode to name a few).

I know the server I am working on will bring a massive new light to what Mir is (it might not go down well as it is a lot different to what we know) but with the developers I know, and what's in the pipeline, it will really add some needed invigoration back to the Mir scene
 

SPL1FF

Golden Oldie
Golden Oldie
Banshee
Game Master
Mar 24, 2003
520
270
270
Hit the nail on the ******* head, couldn't agree more and couldn't have worded it any better.
Agree with Win on all points too. I must also add that obvious cash cows need to be removed from advertising on LOMCN for a start. Ariss / Epic / Sapphire (yup) you could just tell from the get go what they were. Crypto on the new OS is also got me feeling a bit uneasy…
 

Seanofsmeg

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Apr 6, 2015
902
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Oo I like some of the topics

Do me a favour if yous can I can see some saying LOMCN needs better x or y if it's a feedback point for us would be great to have the problem and what you think the new rule / potential solution is
 
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