Mir2 Priv Server's & the LAW?

[Far]

im telling you. stupid people on this forum get stupider.

this forum IS illegal. although lomcn doesnt host, and has a eula that any content found on this forum is not by their action its still against the law.

why dont wemade sue? not because it would cost them money. they have tons of it, im sure they cld waste abit on us if they wanted to.

its because we arnt a threat. the amount of users we have here compared to theirs means nothing. they can afford to loose 200 members.

now, if you put THEIR game in shops, and sell it off as your own, taking alot more of THEIR business they WILL come down on you believe me.

like people have said, lomcn has gone down numerous times because of law suit threats, and on each of those occasions its because we got the better of them. like releasing emulators, new files, rz coming up.

 

[AGuyWithAThing]

eula that any content found on this forum is not by their action its still against the law.

i agree with the content of what is posted is illegal, but if not this forum then another so it would be pointless in theory coming after lomcn because it would take time to take it down in the meantime another would arise, then another and another and another it's a battle wemade could not win

but in the grand scheme of things all wemade could do is force lomcn to delete it's content or not enable public visability it would be up to the host to shut down or not, it couldn't be shut down by wemade due to the fact its content was created by someone to whom has no ownership or responsibility of the website therefore lomcn could argue the fact they were un aware of the posted content

 

[Far]

its still not certainly known how much lomcn is breaking the law. but if the official 2.2 server files were posted here tomoro wemade wld certainly threat to take action if the site wasnt taken down. they have done it everytime a new threat to their user base has come out or been leached.

but your right, the time it takes them to take a forum down is far greater than it takes to start another one up.

 

[Ash]

That's true farril.

I am not too sure that 2.2 serverfiles will be posted just yet though :P

But that's a reason why no action to close Priv Servers has been taken so far, simply because they are really no match for Euro Mir because Euro Mir has LOADS more players and features to come in the future compared 1.4 and 1.9 servers out atm.

 

[CraiG^]

LOMCN, ain't illegal i thought as they r merely DISCUSSING the files and how they work etc? and as LOMCN doesn't host any files then they cannot have legal action taken against them, ain't that correct? :s

 

[NickAKAVexus]

Here we go again, honestly how can wemade claim 1.9 emulator files? They are re-coded from scratch. Only part they can really claim is the names of items etc. If they are even copyrighted.

Its the players choice if he wants to use wemades client (which is their property) to connect to a different server.


get what i'm saying? :P

 

[Far]

you cant write your own game from scratch, called is age of empires 3, and let it be identicle. and not expect law suits to come in to action.

copyright is stealing their material. it may not be the code, but your stealing everything else.

 

[NickAKAVexus]

Nah Farril.. If I code a server(for a diff game say my own) and some one modified their mir client to connect to it.. does that mean its illegal because their client can connect to it?

Obviously we are copying them, but theres something called a loophole and they can't do anything about 1.9 servers because they do not own them they are our code. I'm not making people use wemades client to connect to my server. Its their choice.

I think you can do a search on emulators on google i'm sure they dispute this alot. I'm not sure what they say of course this is just my opinion.

 

[Ragnar]

As far as i know, modifying wemades client is agianst the EULA or whatever.

 

[NickAKAVexus]

Exactly so its up to the players to make the right choice.. usually you will see on private server websites they say things like "We take no responsibility" or something like that.

I can run the server(1.9, all new code wemade doesn't own it) but I can not give people a modified client that connects to my server. :P

 

[TrueADM]

Basically, if someone coded server software that emulates the original mir server files down to the smallest detail, as long as everything was written from scratch, it's 100% legal. I wrote a gameboy emulator for my university project and I had to cover this issue extensively. The only way to stop people from emulating their software is to buy the rights/business out for the emulator (this has happened many of times in the past).

 

[Far]

how could they be sure its actually their own code then?

surely if you write it in the same language, and have the same content. excluding the order you right it, and the names you give the objects, the code will be alike, or similar.

 

[TrueADM]

Nope, there are thousands of ways of doing the same thing in programming. Plus programmers always leave in special 'signs' so they know it's their work. Programming is like speaking French or English, there's a different accent; in programming same thing applies.

 

[AGuyWithAThing]

Nope, there are thousands of ways of doing the same thing in programming. Plus programmers always leave in special 'signs' so they know it's their work. Programming is like speaking French or English, there's a different accent; in programming same thing applies.

tis true there are so many ways of writing a statment there are just a FEW

i use to write:

if(argument)
*indent*{
*indent*action;
*indent*}

then:

if(argument)
{
*indent*action;
}

at the moment:

if(argument){
*indent*action;
}


I wrote a Stats script for the AMXX CS Super Hero mod a while back then someone ripped it off, took me about 30 seconds to realise he ripped of my code and given me no recognition

this is the point i stopped releaseing my source codes to the public well it wasnt the first time and was starting to annoy me, only reason i released them in the first place was to put on my portfolio to say i made that but it now looked like i ripped it of them cut a long story short it's easy for programmers to distinguish their own code against others

 

[NickAKAVexus]

Nope, there are thousands of ways of doing the same thing in programming. Plus programmers always leave in special 'signs' so they know it's their work. Programming is like speaking French or English, there's a different accent; in programming same thing applies.

Exactly, trust me wemade aren't stupid they know if you are using their server or not. lol

I was threatened way back as were many to stop hosting server files etc.. site was visited by GameNetwork address. This was for 1.4, if they said that now I would just laugh at them and tell them to phuck off. :mooned:

 

[Ash]

Yep WeMade use to crack down on servers alot. Now they have relised that there Mir is fair better, well, it makes much more cash than priv servers, and they are not losing any to priv servers, so they don't see the point in closing server's now.

And i remember Leo posting sometime back about how WeMade cannot just sue you, they have to warn you to close the server first, and if you do not close the server THEN they can take action against you.

 

[AGuyWithAThing]

i think it's good on euro mir's part as we see from ragezone and such most of the tits from euro mir have migrated to private servers

making euro mir an all round nicer place to be

 

[DarkSpectrum]

lol, WEMADE cant really do anything, first they have to ask u to close server..2nd they have to find out ur name and address..3rd;y they have to fork out a few grand to sue u

not worth hassle for them..lol

 

[LeoCrasher]

@HeavenSent
Handing out the CD without personal profit, represents nothing anymore illegal than what any other server owner does. However be aware that other server owners ARE committing a crime.

@Others
There seems to be a lot of confusion over what is exactly illegal and not. Therefore in this post I will hope to cover common elements I've researched over the past two years. I will ignore the heavy parts of the process of reverse engineering (since we're not the ones that did it), but will look in some detail at the implications of using the software which was created from the result of it. I'd also like to apoligise for my note form, but until I'm 100% sure its right, I've no intention of presenting it otherwise - especially as parts of it are contredictory. Interpret this guide as you may...

1. Using MIR clients
-Modifying the MIR client is illegal, as defined in the EULA. This INCLUDES modifying INI's and EXE's to point at a different server address. (although if it went to court, you would be able to say that such functionality was intended, since the IP was in a easily editable file, as opposed to being hardcoded - this may fail for 1.9).
-You may use their work in homebrew clients as long as no profit is involved, however you may NOT redistribute their work without permission. (you can use homebrew clients to connect to any server if the HB client doesn't contain copyrighted material).
-You may redistribute homebrew clients without any of their copyrighted works.
-In the UK, you may make a profit from homebrew clients/servers as long as nothing within it is copyrighted or the result of decompilation (or similar processes).
-In the USA, you may make a profit from homebrew clients/servers as long as nothing within it is copyrighted and all reverse engineered solutions are in the most minimal form needed for INTEROPERABILITY with the original.

2. Using the 1.9 serverfiles
-I'm not aware of how much these files is written from scratch, however understand you may very well be using the result of a reverse engineered (not your concern), or illegally obtained (very much your concern) source for a protocol (although protocols may be considered ideas) of which you do not own the license.
-Distributing a modified client containing wemade works is illegal.
-Using and creating 100% emulated softwares is legal
-Using wemade works without permission is illegal by copyright violation.

3. Using the 1.4 serverfiles
-You have stolen and are illegally operating serverfiles without the required license, you are fully liable in court.

4. Discussion in public
-LOMCN and all other entities like it, ACTIVELY brake the law. This forums existance and structure encourages, aids and abets the creation and maintenance of illegally obtained servers. This forum does not attempt to ONLY cater for LEGAL 'mir' server files (none of which are currently public domain). However this area of law is very haphazard... and the upcoming cases between Isohunt, thepiratebay etc will help in this development (they're claiming a similar defence of non-responsibility)...
--how liable is LOMCN for the content posted on it, when the forum makes no distinction between the types of discussion (legal homebrew VS stolen) it allows?
--is it reasonable to expect site staff to check the entities which advertise on it?
--what is the intention of LOMCN, is this intention legal - it was afterall created over the development of illegally operated mir3 files?
--does the fact that almost all 'aid' discussion is on illegal server files alter any of the above? (ie, would you not close a village hall that allowed drug kings to meet every friday at 7)
--Note, L2J's server advertisment section had to be shut down as too many people we're advertising illegal lineage2 servers (as opposed to legal L2J)

5. Use of the MIR 1.4 protocol (as used by 1.4 and [all] 1.9emu clients)
-'ideas and principles underlying a program are not protected by copyright'
-'logic, algorithims and programming languages may somewhat comprise ideas and principles'
-You may analyse the function of a program if you are a licensed user (people that accept the EULA are licensed users of the CLIENT)
-Reverse engineering is allowed to make an INTEROPERABLE program, but not a competeing one.
-The information may not be passed onto others except when used for further research.
-The "legitimate interests" of the copyright owner or "normal exploitation" of the program must not be prejudice.
-Decompilation is NOT 'fair use' in the UK/EU (it is in the USA as long as the 'copying' does not go beyond what is strictly neccessary for interopability)

NB: Warnings
-If Wemade don't issue you with a warning first, their case will be made a lot harder since the range of defences available to you is much larger. However don't use this as an assurance... they are perfectly able to issue you with a court order w/out a warning.

More recent unresearched sidenotes:
-L2J is 100% emulated and free, although it is unclear how much reverse engineering took place
-Homebrew battle.net (see Blizzard v BNETD) servers have been shut down through the courts.
--The 8th CC said "reverse engineering and emulating the Blizzard software were illegal"
--The result of this case allows any American company to be sued for creating interoperable products from the result of reverse engineering.

--

With that said, looking at this from a legal perspective is down right silly. If something was to be done, its pretty reasonable to assume that something would have been done before now (unless gathering evidence is a factor). It would be much more astute to look at this from a business perspective, but thats out the scope of this thread.... but I'll be happy to discuss it with anyone via PM.

Hope that helps you,
/Leo

 

[Far]

@HeavenSent
Handing out the CD without personal profit, represents nothing anymore illegal than what any other server owner does. However be aware that other server owners ARE committing a crime.

surely if the game shops accept an illegal copy of a game, it puts them in the firing line of illegal action?