Q and possibly A session with the Team

[ILovePie:D]

Class specific fights is all you're talkng about... sins dominate archers/wiz/taos because of shadow step, all you're talking about is sin v warrior.

"equal" kit doesn't refer to stats, it refers to cost, you talk about speed 7 warriors like it's easy to achieve.. it'll cost a warrior 100m if not more to achieve speed 7. I've always thought of mir as a rock/paper/scissors game, you shouldn't have 1 class that can beat every other.

It's only cost related due to the market place. I was buying Storm Gems for Depress' when they were going for 4-5m. I also found a few cheeky ones in the TM @ 2m, when people went to put them in for 20.

Once people realised Agil and Slow was good, the price of these went up from 1m per Gem to 7-10m per gem also.

So, we're back to stats over cost.

No one class rules all on here.

I can stack well against Warriors with Agility, but I sacrifice a big chunk of DC to be able to do this on Tori. Also no defense for others.
I can stack well against Archers with Magic Resistance, but I sacrifice a DC again. No Agil for Warriors, or defence for wiz.
I can't stack against wizards, as MR isn't effective. Shield takes up 66% of my DC, and I have no way of cutting through this, and i'm able to be killed easily due to my low HP.
Taos are hard to kill on a sin, due to flinch from 2 pets, SFB, poison and curse.

I SPEC my kit for the fight i'm going to.

 

[ziiid]

Class specific fights is all you're talkng about... sins dominate archers/wiz/taos because of shadow step, all you're talking about is sin v warrior.

"equal" kit doesn't refer to stats, it refers to cost, you talk about speed 7 warriors like it's easy to achieve.. it'll cost a warrior 100m if not more to achieve speed 7. I've always thought of mir as a rock/paper/scissors game, you shouldn't have 1 class that can beat every other.

Guessing by the post you havent played much sin. Dsword, gale necky halfsmash set and gale ring =speed 7 not a pile of dc but still speed 7... You don't exactly fall over and aquire a DC 90 lk7 agility 35 slow 5 kit......Wizards and archers both can 1 shot sins so its not exactly an easy stomping... plenty of good tao's wouldn't get easily stomped by a sin.

 

[CantTouchThis]

I didnt ignore it, i asked you to provide the examples youre basing your arguments on. So it's you who missed it the first time. You've also conveniently not answered my point about the other aspects of sins that give them an advantage over warrs.

Which leads me nicely onto ziiids point. It will never just be a case of stat allocation, the classes are very different. Also, this didnt start as 'overall class balance', it started as a 'nerf warrs' thread. Ive actually tried to encourage a wider view of the class as a whole, hence mentioning the other spells, their unparalleled ability to solo bosses etc, however this has thus far been ignored or poorly challenged. Finally, for a warr to spec slow it would actually likely be a trade off for speed, not DC.

P.s. kyler i havent abused you, i havent even ranted at you over TS yet. Can be arranged though if you like x

 

[Muh]

I didnt ignore it, i asked you to provide the examples youre basing your arguments on. So it's you who missed it the first time. You've also conveniently not answered my point about the other aspects of sins that give them an advantage over warrs.

Which leads me nicely onto ziiids point. It will never just be a case of stat allocation, the classes are very different. Also, this didnt start as 'overall class balance', it started as a 'nerf warrs' thread. Ive actually tried to encourage a wider view of the class as a whole, hence mentioning the other spells, their unparalleled ability to solo bosses etc, however this has thus far been ignored or poorly challenged. Finally, for a warr to spec slow it would actually likely be a trade off for speed, not DC.

P.s. kyler i havent abused you, i havent even ranted at you over TS yet. Can be arranged though if you like x

Wars never have stat+7 smash rings, they can always stat slow you'll see later on when items are speed 3 at cap and wars like WOODIE who have gems coming out there arses with slow 2-4 speed 8 kits like he's making now.
Slow stat is negated as wars can abuse it too, same with PA so sins green is pointless come to think of it...
How fun 130DC speed 8 slow 4 lk 4 1k HP. Vs 'speed 8' Hp 500 Slow 4 DC 90
Work it out.
I play all classes btw.

 

[Jicaa]

I didnt ignore it, i asked you to provide the examples youre basing your arguments on. So it's you who missed it the first time. You've also conveniently not answered my point about the other aspects of sins that give them an advantage over warrs.

Which leads me nicely onto ziiids point. It will never just be a case of stat allocation, the classes are very different. Also, this didnt start as 'overall class balance', it started as a 'nerf warrs' thread. Ive actually tried to encourage a wider view of the class as a whole, hence mentioning the other spells, their unparalleled ability to solo bosses etc, however this has thus far been ignored or poorly challenged. Finally, for a warr to spec slow it would actually likely be a trade off for speed, not DC.

P.s. kyler i havent abused you, i havent even ranted at you over TS yet. Can be arranged though if you like x

In reality you don't have to sacrifice speed, you can gem slow and speed, and I for one would sacrifice the dc to gem slow and speed if i PvP'd a lot.

 

[ziiid]

I didnt ignore it, i asked you to provide the examples youre basing your arguments on. So it's you who missed it the first time. You've also conveniently not answered my point about the other aspects of sins that give them an advantage over warrs.

Which leads me nicely onto ziiids point. It will never just be a case of stat allocation, the classes are very different. Also, this didnt start as 'overall class balance', it started as a 'nerf warrs' thread. Ive actually tried to encourage a wider view of the class as a whole, hence mentioning the other spells, their unparalleled ability to solo bosses etc, however this has thus far been ignored or poorly challenged. Finally, for a warr to spec slow it would actually likely be a trade off for speed, not DC.

P.s. kyler i havent abused you, i havent even ranted at you over TS yet. Can be arranged though if you like x

Yeah overall spells has to be looked at, new spells NEED to be added. However on the boss point, this was true especially early on, as you get to much higher kited warriors they can solo just as easily for most bosses, you either just haven't tried or haven't heard about it. Green poison is only necessary while doing lower damage, once you hit really high damage you can out damage re gen (on most bosses).

 

[CantTouchThis]

Unfortunately not everyone has gems coming out of their asses.

And yes, technically you can spec both. But to get max a speed and gem slow youre really talking about either speed gemming a high dc slow+ ring, or slow gemming a speed++ ring which. Both of which are expensive and not that easy to come by. Yes, it will be done, but it wont be common and certainly wont be easy to achieve, particularly because storm gems are the most expensive and have a lower chance of working than other gems.

 

[Muh]

Unfortunately not everyone has gems coming out of their asses.

And yes, technically you can spec both. But to get max a speed and gem slow youre really talking about either speed gemming a high dc slow+ ring, or slow gemming a speed++ ring which. Both of which are expensive and not that easy to come by. Yes, it will be done, but it wont be common and certainly wont be easy to achieve, particularly because storm gems are the most expensive and have a lower chance of working than other gems.

Irl cash sales, what ever is achievable gets achieved.
Needs stopping not ignoring and leaving for the rich to exploit.
The biased ignorance here from over defensive warriors is unreal, even IlovePie is giving ground ...he knows.
Sins only hope vs high lvl is slow/agil, high lvl war counters and they are both slowed, Who will win hit for hit considering war takes 8 and the sin 2?
Logic

 

[Razarus]

I didnt ignore it, i asked you to provide the examples youre basing your arguments on.

we are talking achievable stats. so a max kitted war vs a max kitted sin
cost does not matter, we are talking achievable stats and aiming for class balance.

being the "highest single target dps class" id suggest a sin should out damage a warrior in PvE vs single targets. We both know that is not currently how it is don't we.. ??
Because the answer to this question is, Warriors are faster, my suggestion months ago to cap aspeed (before anyone achieved it) would solve this balance issue.

---------- Post Merged at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 05:14 PM ----------

If you then need to give warriors more DC to compensate for the reduced speed whilst keeping them below a sin for single target dps then so be it, that would be balancing.

 

[Koriban]

In reality you don't have to sacrifice speed, you can gem slow and speed, and I for one would sacrifice the dc to gem slow and speed if i PvP'd a lot.

Sacrifice DC? Ah no problem, just get it back with Rage. :applouse:

Raz the problem with giving warriors more dc as a compensation would mean they would, at some point, literally be one hitting people with a top end TDB or flamesword.

 

[ILovePie:D]

Sacrifice DC? Ah no problem, just get it back with Rage. :applouse:

Raz the problem with giving warriors more dc as a compensation would mean they would, at some point, literally be one hitting people with a top end TDB or flamesword.

Which is like WoW?

Warrior (tank) Slow hitting, chance of high top end crits. High HP, high armour.
Rogue (DPS) fast hitting, fast but average hits. Low HP, low armour.

 

[Koriban]

Which is like WoW?

Warrior (tank) Slow hitting, chance of high top end crits. High HP, high armour.
Rogue (DPS) fast hitting, fast but average hits. Low HP, low armour.

Indeed but the difference in your comparison is rogue's have a shitton of stuns, interupts etc and quite literally dick all over mages. I expect a rogue to get trashed by a warrior in WoW. I Expect a mage to get trashed by a rogue in wow.

Going by that logic, sins should be destroying wizards on here, but it's the exact opposite.

 

[CantTouchThis]

i'm pretty much done sinking time into this thread. there's 'bias' from both sides if you look at it objectively, and there always will be.

I remember a time at the start of the server when sins were far, far stronger that warriors. Didnt see so many cries then.

The issue with DS is being addressed. The new spells for sins look potentially epic. Nerfing warrs as well would only add further momentum to the constantly swinging pendulum that is the act of balancing classes that would only need to be revisited in the future.

thanks for keeping me occupied at work today though =d

 

[Mosai]

personally i think if you get close to a warr you should be expecting to get 1-2 hit as this is there "zone"

Sins should be in and out fighters and shouldn't be able to defeat a warrior in melee.

Warr's should be decimated by mages and archers unless they get them in there "zone"

Sins should be able to destroy mages and archers if they are cunning enough.

Taos and monks should be able to defend against all threats and have the option to flee.


This is what it should be like, I dont think speed should matter. If you want to fight a warrior with a sin you had best be ready for a hard time

So the problem i have is wizards are too effective in the warriors "zone"

 

[Koriban]

personally i think if you get close to a warr you should be expecting to get 1-2 hit as this is there "zone"

Sins should be in and out fighters and shouldn't be able to defeat a warrior in melee.

Warr's should be decimated by mages and archers unless they get them in there "zone"

Sins should be able to destroy mages and archers if they are cunning enough.

Taos and monks should be able to defend against all threats and have the option to flee.


This is what it should be like, I dont think speed should matter. If you want to fight a warrior with a sin you had best be ready for a hard time

So the problem i have is wizards are too effective in the warriors "zone"

I agree with the above, sins shouldn't actually beat a warrior hands down,

but currently sins have a horrible horrible time with wizzies (1shot by any of their AoE abilities)

Archers vs sins is a fine matchup. Total skill matchup imo, but wizzies negate 66% of all sin damage and they have no way to cut through that. If they attempt to get into melee range they get 1shot by one of their aoe spells (ff, blizz, met)

If sins doubleslash could cut shield, then they'd be perfectly fine and not need touching at all.

 

[Razarus]

i'm pretty much done sinking time into this thread. there's 'bias' from both sides if you look at it objectively, and there always will be.

I remember a time at the start of the server when sins were far, far stronger that warriors. Didnt see so many cries then.

The issue with DS is being addressed. The new spells for sins look potentially epic. Nerfing warrs as well would only add further momentum to the constantly swinging pendulum that is the act of balancing classes that would only need to be revisited in the future.

thanks for keeping me occupied at work today though =d

still didn't answer the question. :/
now you tuck tale and SD away. See you in the next thread.

 

[Jicaa]

Something that could help sins. How about going the route of US Mir, where the first hit of DS is AC and the second hit is AMC, this would potentially increase damage slightly in PvP vs Warriors, while helping classes with more AMC take a little less damage.