Suggestion Regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

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Tango_GreatWall

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I've been PVP with war, wiz and tao a lot in team fight.
My suggestions are not to nerf spells of any other class, but to balance sin's spells a little bit.

1. Sin Vs War
War in this server has been given additional 1 acc per 7 lvl to empower War's PVE.
But this advantage should not be used in PVP, given the fact war can use flame, dragon rise, blade storm in a row. So, I advise to give additional agi for sin, such as 1 agi per 7 lvl to counter the buffed acc for war.
War want to hit us? Build you acc set, cause we don't have high hp like war and we can't hit lotus in a row to match your combo damage.

2. Sin Vs Wiz or Tao (Ranged class)

Fighting with ranged class, problems are as follows:
1) your charged sweetbrieal will fade away within about 12 seconds or so. I advise to increase the buff time if your successfully hit one lotus.
2) With critical and buffed element damage, Sin become half Hp by getting close, not to mention tempest's pushing back and punishment from Dance if you dare use it. I advise to empower sin's evasion spell to increase dodge percentage from magic and element damage from players.
3) Wraith grip is nerfed too much, should be able to hit a 2 lotus combo given the cool down of this skill

Thank you

---------- Post Merged at 02:31 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:28 PM ----------

Some addtions.
The reason to support empower evasion spell is that War can immune damage from tempest by shoulder dash. Sin should have a similar skill to get close to ranged class as well given sin has a lower hp
 
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Jamie

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

I've been PVP with war, wiz and tao a lot in team fight.
My suggestions are not to nerf spells of any other class, but to balance sin's spells a little bit.

1. Sin Vs War
War in this server has been given additional 1 acc per 7 lvl to empower War's PVE.
But this advantage should not be used in PVP, given the fact war can use flame, dragon rise, blade storm in a row. So, I advise to give additional agi for sin, such as 1 agi per 7 lvl to counter the buffed acc for war.
War want to hit us? Build you acc set, cause we don't have high hp like war and we can't hit lotus in a row to match your combo damage.

2. Sin Vs Wiz or Tao (Ranged class)

Fighting with ranged class, problems are as follows:
1) your charged sweetbrieal will fade away within about 12 seconds or so. I advise to increase the buff time if your successfully hit one lotus.
2) With critical and buffed element damage, Sin become half Hp by getting close, not to mention tempest's pushing back and punishment from Dance if you dare use it. I advise to empower sin's evasion spell to increase dodge percentage from magic and element damage from players.
3) Wraith grip is nerfed too much, should be able to hit a 2 lotus combo given the cool down of this skill

Thank you

---------- Post Merged at 02:31 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:28 PM ----------

Some addtions.
The reason to support empower evasion spell is that War can immune damage from tempest by shoulder dash. Sin should have a similar skill to get close to ranged class as well given sin has a lower hp


Just a quick point. Warriors do NOT gain 1 Accuracy per 7 levels.
 

Tango_GreatWall

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

They don't? Sry, maybe I missed some patch notes. I remembered I read one note regarding game features.
 

GeeDee

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

Nice of you to join the sin discussion Tango. :)

This exact conversation is happening in a few posts at the moment.

It is hard for Jamie, some serious thought is going to have to be put into any changes that are made.

Good things come to those that wait.
 

Piff1

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

Hope we get some serious feedback and idea's in here, Don't want it to end up like Marble where Assassin's went from complete dog **** to dominating everything in one mental buff to them.

I honestly think Warrior's also need a bit of love in group fights they seemed a bit useless in these big tempest fight's also.

I don't want to see more nerfs to other classes i'd rather Sin's / Warr getting some changes to cater to them in group fights.


P.S Tango it was Sin that was gaining 1 Accuracy per 7 levels but it got changed back as mobs Agility got changed instead i think.
 

Exwizz

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

just been testing in palace with jamie fear and tifa..

try using Adv wind kit... thats all that needs to be said.

even ask tifa.
 

Tango_GreatWall

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

Yeah, I know you must be a sin fan as myself. Let's wait Jamie offer a good balance to our class. Keep up and don't give up easily.
Nice of you to join the sin discussion Tango. :)

This exact conversation is happening in a few posts at the moment.

It is hard for Jamie, some serious thought is going to have to be put into any changes that are made.

Good things come to those that wait.

---------- Post Merged at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 04:42 PM ----------

Yeah, I know the recent patch and the quick rewind for sin's acc. Can you guys check war's acc in game? I do remember that there was a patch note on old forum before launch which stated that war would gain 1 acc per 7 levels.
Another thing in this sever is that agi is totally useless for element attack, such as mob at bp and Jp. I don't think this is the original setting because I used to hunt at JP and can still dodge damage without evasion.

Hope we get some serious feedback and idea's in here, Don't want it to end up like Marble where Assassin's went from complete dog **** to dominating everything in one mental buff to them.

I honestly think Warrior's also need a bit of love in group fights they seemed a bit useless in these big tempest fight's also.

I don't want to see more nerfs to other classes i'd rather Sin's / Warr getting some changes to cater to them in group fights.


P.S Tango it was Sin that was gaining 1 Accuracy per 7 levels but it got changed back as mobs Agility got changed instead i think.
 

Piff1

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

just been testing in palace with jamie fear and tifa..

try using Adv wind kit... thats all that needs to be said.

even ask tifa.

So Classes have to lose a massive part of their kit to not get 2 hit by tempest.. Seem's legit.
 

ibby

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

So Classes have to lose a massive part of their kit to not get 2 hit by tempest.. Seem's legit.
Standard haha
 

GeeDee

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

I watched this pvp. The wiz only cast one tempest. That would not happen in a proper PVP. The wiz would spam it. Also the sin was using dance a lot, this also would not happen in pvp.

The sin died. The wiz won. Even in adv wind gear. .

I heard Jamie is one of best sin pvpers around, so if he cant beat them, rest of us stand no chance.
 

Exwizz

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

jamie did end up killing a higher level wiz in the testing with a the sin FEAR without his main damage spell in PVP leveled.

if thats fear talking (GeeDee) you just died to a level 45 tao called brolly... so it has nothing to do with wiz vs sin, you're just not a good sin.

you also admitted to having 50 fps with 1 temp on the floor.. and 25+ ping, would hate to see the state of your fps mid fight or at sabuk.
 

Jamie

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

I watched this pvp. The wiz only cast one tempest. That would not happen in a proper PVP. The wiz would spam it. Also the sin was using dance a lot, this also would not happen in pvp.

The sin died. The wiz won. Even in adv wind gear. .

I heard Jamie is one of best sin pvpers around, so if he cant beat them, rest of us stand no chance.



Lets be real here, I am so rusty in PvP on this game I am probably one of the lower grade PvPers now.

I certainly did try to fight the wiz with a borrowed level 49 Sin, but a few points should be made in about the fight, Level Sin 49 vs Level 52 Wiz. Some of the Key spells on Assassin were not leveled, (Flash of Light, New beginning) Evasion and RaginWind were limited to level 2. Regular Potions (Not Pills).

I am not making exception but I would expect the wiz to win with all the above mentioned.
 
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Tango_GreatWall

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

So, the conclusion for the test is that Sin has no disadvantage in PVP....? I can't believe that you would think this conclusion is right....
Other sins are not idiots. So many rerolls and quits are not because they are bad in playing sin, but because the fact that Sin is just useless in PVP especially in team fight.

Lets be real here, I am so rusty in PvP on this game I am probably one of the lower grade PvPers now.

I certainly did try to fight the wiz with a borrowed level 49 Sin, but a few points should be made in about the fight, Level Sin 49 vs Level 52 Wiz. Some of the Key spells on Assassin were not leveled, (Flash of Light, New beginning) Evasion and RaginWind were limited to level 2. Regular Potions (Not Pills).

I am not making exception but I would expect the wiz to win with all the above mentioned.
 

Shane/Banshee

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

In a nut shell we will always be working on making the game balanced as possible, But it’s very hard to do so with people at different levels and different kits he’ll even different stages of skil levels

will discuss with Jamie during the week and try to come up with a plan. I’ve been watching sins struggle for a bit now hence the continued buffs every reboot/patch
 

Piff1

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

Yeh go re-do that fight in a cave where punishments for using your skills happens and see how the fight pans out, it's hardly like everybody is just fighting around town with freedom to RT / Use all their skills to full potential. Fact of the matter is no matter how good you are on an Assassin on Mir3 you aint doing **** in a big 15 vs 15 + fight. You just sit behind your guilds Tempest hoping a Warr Becons somebody so you can actually hit a person xD

You know what i think would really help Sin's out in group fights a Skill like how DOS worked on Marble but with a shorter Tele back time, so we could charge a bloom pop in the middle smash 1/2 big hits and teleport back, i mean **** it would be a risk but if you used it at the right time we could be of some sort of use.. Btw i'm not suggesting changing How DOS works because the Marble way would only work in certain situations.
 
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DarkSacred

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

Would love to see Sins have dance of swallows! In try to do some damage and back out before you get focused. Exactly how a Sin should play too, they are supoosed to be in and out fighters not standing there taking face to face blows. Sins atm seem very stripped back in terms of useful PvP skills.

As a side note about warriors, I’m pretty sure you start with 16 accuracy and cap put at 21 with swordsmanship level 3. My accuracy has remained at 21 for as long as I can remember!
 

UnluckyXIII

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

Would love to see Sins have dance of swallows! In try to do some damage and back out before you get focused. Exactly how a Sin should play too, they are supoosed to be in and out fighters not standing there taking face to face blows. Sins atm seem very stripped back in terms of useful PvP skills.

As a side note about warriors, I’m pretty sure you start with 16 accuracy and cap put at 21 with swordsmanship level 3. My accuracy has remained at 21 for as long as I can remember!

We have DoS, unless you are meaning the variant from Marble??

PvP balance is always going to be hard so I’d prefer if there weren’t any drastic changes, I’m fairly sure every other Sin out there would appreciate some love though!

Getting back to the points made about having advantage wind kit, imo that works fine in a testing environment as it’s a staged test, in the real world it’s not quite the same. Sure if you are going for a boss and expect some contention for it you could kit up but most of the PvP I’ve been involved in takes place when jusr out hunting, meaning the likelihood of having that extra kit is slim, even more so because the risk involved in having it in your bag. So it’s maybe not the best way to test, additionally you can guarantee that PvP only breaks out on a floor where DoS is useless due to the potion cooldown (I’m happy for this to remain as it prevents a lot of abuse).

I’d like to see some changes to Wraith Grip, possibly increase the hold time up to 3/4 seconds and reduce the cooldown by upto 2/3rds, at the moment it’s a pretty pointless skill with its limited hold and 60 second refresh....

There also seems to be mention about FoL and NB, maybe I’ve missed something with this (I’ve not levelled FoL all the way but have NB to Lv.3), I’ll give it a bit more of a try but so far it doesn’t seem that strong (guessing it scales from DC? As I’ve only got around 120 top with buff etc).

Asside from the lacklustre PvP the recent changes to Sins have only been positive from my perspective and the class is starting to feel a little more fun now that I’m past the lower levels.
 

GeeDee

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

So I managed to get up to 25m exp per hour in goru. This was with XL drugs on so cost a bit but i made the money back so np.
I recon to even the leveling gap, simply take out the goru 50% hp teleport mechanic. This slows us down a lot, and if it was removed we would be able to probably get around 28m an hour. Even lower level sins would probably be able to make 20mill exp an hour. It would get us much closer to the 40m p/h that wiz / tao can do, and even us out with warriors hourly exp rate. This solution would also make us no more powerful in terms of PVP.

To even out pvp a bit more, I think Wraith Grip will need to be looked into and made a bit more powerful.
 

Jamie

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

So I managed to get up to 25m exp per hour in goru. This was with XL drugs on so cost a bit but i made the money back so np.
I recon to even the leveling gap, simply take out the goru 50% hp teleport mechanic. This slows us down a lot, and if it was removed we would be able to probably get around 28m an hour. Even lower level sins would probably be able to make 20mill exp an hour. It would get us much closer to the 40m p/h that wiz / tao can do, and even us out with warriors hourly exp rate. This solution would also make us no more powerful in terms of PVP.

To even out pvp a bit more, I think Wraith Grip will need to be looked into and made a bit more powerful.

Some of the Ideas me and Shane will be talking about on weekend (Note these are just discussion points):

Dance of Swallows to Trigger a Lotus attack (if charged).
Beckon, Interchange, Geo, Dance of Swallow, Summon Puppet increased spell cooldown if cast near a boss (or sub).
Beckon, Interchange, Geo, Dance of Swallow no long have the Item Penalty.
Summon Puppet to offer Invincibility for 1 second on cast, (so as not to break stealth if used whilst being attack).
Cloak to remain even when taking damage, (Like Transparency).
Revisit Mana vs DC calculations (without max luck).
Tempest and Firewall are limited to one if you are not in Peace mode. (Like Sabuk War).
Tempest and Firewall to be destroyed if it damages a player.
Tempest review repel rate in PvP.

Please note these are just points of debate because these seem to be hot issues.
 
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Jicaa

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Re: Suggestion regarding Sin's PVP--------To Jamie

Some of the Ideas me and Shane will be talking about on weekend (Note these are just discussion points):

Dance of Swallows to Trigger a Lotus attack (if charged).
Beckon, Interchange, Geo, Dance of Swallow, Summon Puppet increased spell cooldown if cast near a boss (or sub).
Beckon, Interchange, Geo no long have the Item Penalty.
Summon Puppet to offer Invincibility for 1 second on cast, (so as not to break stealth if used whilst being attack).
Cloak to remain even when taking damage, (Like Transparency).
Revisit Mana vs DC calculations (without max luck).
Tempest and Firewall are limited to one if you are not in Peace mode. (Like Sabuk War).
Tempest and Firewall to be destroyed if a player takes damage.
Tempest review repel rate in PvP.

Please note these are just points of debate because these seem to be hot issues.

I like a lot of these idea... not the taking damage to remove Firewall and Tempest tho, often when i'm luring I allow monsters to hit me 1-2 time before I Geo the other side so that the monsters continue to stay grouped up nicely.