Other Server concept - looking for advice/team

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holo

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Hi, I've been playing Mir since EU beta, and private servers since RZ first opened (@Robert on there). I'm a systems engineer as my day job, creating systems for the company I work for, based mainly in MSSQL (not sure if mir can use that?). That is my brief bio. I am interested in creating a new server based on my extensive knowledge of mmos, and personal opinion on where/how many servers fail. As a systems engineer, I'm all about creating stable systems which will last long time/indefinitely, and be self sufficient. Something Mir on a whole lacks, and why most mmos incorporate regular gear resets. I've spent well over a year thinking about how this server would work, and I think the following would work best.

Firstly, the server would be based around reducing the barrier of entry to new players. A healthy new user count is the life blood of any server, getting new players to be relevant will be a priority. With this in mind, the first unique characteristic of the server would be a 100% increase in EXP per level under the max level. This might seem like a lot, but in the grand scheme of things it entirely depends on the exp rate, which will be incredibly low;

Levelling - very low rate up to 26. Around 2 weeks. That's when the game really "starts". Most classes have their basic skills, so PvP would be interesting and intense. I'd be open to changing skill levels around this level to make it balanced between classes. At this point exp will drop off massively, ~1 month per level (consistently, the curve will be mostly removed/balanced with increased kill speeds).

The idea will therefore be every month there is a soft gear reset. At which point everyone not at the bleeding edge is boosted to catch up. This will promote new players and casuals (this will be the main system to keep those players interested and relevant to content).

I say soft gear reset which brings me onto next point. Gear will be released for every level after 26, and only drop once a player is that level (possibly base drop on highest level of group?). Each level will have 4(+?) tiers, common, uncommon, rare and legendary. Common will drop from normal mobs, uncommon rarely from normal mobs, rare from sub bosses and legendary from bosses. The idea is everyone will be running around in at least common gear, the more time invested (hardcore!) the better the player is geared. Generally speaking each tier is around +1 lvls of stats of current level (so common 26 would be 26, uncommon 27, rare 28, legend 29, so you could be set for 3 months with 1 legendary drop) The stats would be auto generated based on tier+lvl+class.

This will in turn have to work with the skill system to balance all skills, so healing should be equally powerful at lvl 26 or 36, scaled for the HP pool. With that in mind, all similar skills will need to be looked at to make sure there is a reason to use them. I'm thinking some should be efficiency based while others would be max damage. Possibly damage over time from fire spells, or added flinch etc. There should be enough variance there that every skill would have a place, and the possibility of adding more skills.

For skill books, I was thinking a system where books are rare, can be deconstructed for pages, and made into a skill book by someone who already has the skill. Higher level the skill, the more pages required. I think would could make a very interesting market for books. The hardcore players would likely find the books, and be able to charge a large premium (or try keep the skill to themselves for a while!). Eventually the skill would be learnt by more people, and slowly distributed to rest of player base, likely over the month. The demand for skills should be high with everyone being similar level, and being alt friendly. Making friends with people the same class to share books would create positive community per class.

Speaking of community, guilds would be capped at 12 members and be easy to create. The buff system guilds have would offer permanent buffs rather than the pointless temp ones most servers have. These should be hard choices, do you go defensive buffs to help all members, or all in MC to help your wizzies? Exp rate to catch up to the highest level quicker? Guilds would compete mainly for towns, the number of which would depend on the number of players on the server. I'd want enough towns to provide some conflict, but not enough that everyone gets one. Secondly, guilds would compete for bosses.

Bosses would be another unique feature of this server. They'd be balanced for a minimum of 6 players, and each boss would be similar in power but different in mechanics. Every boss would 1 shot smaller groups (who should be killing subbosses, which would be unsoloable). Bosses will have fairly long spawn timers, take a large amount of time to kill, drop fairly well but also give every player in the killing group a box once a week. This box will give a random legendary item (possibly based on class and bound?). The idea would be every player would really want to kill every type of boss at least once a week. Pushing players into more PvP.

PvP would hopefully be the most balanced server Mir has ever seen. All players fighting will be fairly similar level, with reasonably equal gear. Ideally everyone within +/- 20% power of each other. Being a long time player will give you an advantage, but winning won't be a sure thing. Player skill will matter far more. A casual player who's played Mir forever vs a new player who has lots of time (ie gear) would be a close fight.


That's the general concept for the server. At 1 month per level, the content in basic Mir would last well over a year (with big events for milestone levels like 30 and 35?). The bulk of content would be player based around bosses and PvP, so should keep people entertained. New players would be up and running within a month or two, so fresh blood would keep coming in and casuals would stay relevant. Hardcore players would be well established each month, already having many legendary's, with strong social connections and towns to defend, to keep them playing month to month.

Thoughts?
 

Alecs

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Is this where Mir meets communism?

Jokes aside. I don't see it. Why would anyone play countless hours just to be a little stronger than a casual player? If I'm to spend my time playing I want to 1 hit casuals.

Anyway, an extremely low rate won't work but you're free to take any files you like, like Crystal and set up your server.
 

Chalace

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Is this where Mir meets communism?

Jokes aside. I don't see it. Why would anyone play countless hours just to be a little stronger than a casual player? If I'm to spend my time playing I want to 1 hit casuals.

Anyway, an extremely low rate won't work but you're free to take any files you like, like Crystal and set up your server.

So, why would anyone that doesn't play 16h a day play Mir? Just to run around getting 1 hit? Doesn't sound much fun for them. You know, the propose of a GAME. Failed 'something to prove' logic aside, I'm yet to see a real low-rate. Everyone always says it will be, then people are 30 in 2 days.

--

That said, from the post that pops up every single month, it's clear people won't play a low rate.
Gating bosses behind 6+player groups sound terrible.
1 month per level post 26 is insane, even by my low-rate standards.

The notion that you will have a consistent stream of new players coming in to make any of this worthwhile is just wishful thinking. This isn't a commercial game you can throw up on steam, or barely even advertise. The community is finite, even-more-so if you don't use multi-language. You only have to look at the user-count list to get an idea.
 
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Sanjian

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low rate to me is ALMOST what i had with my fishing server, it was up 4 months it had 161 accounts made and i played it quite alot, i only managed level 30...

i cant remeber my highest level player, might have been 40+ tbh and that wasnt low rate enough for me. 40 after 4 months tells me i need ot cut my exp alot.

a true low rate just isnt what the majority of players want... we all say we want it but only the true sadistic players would be prepared to play for a month casual just to make 1 level at 25+

Gating bosses behind 6+player groups sound terrible.

it was the only way a group could kill ZT in my day lol. i quite like the fact that that didnt always work either cos someone in the line would move out and zt would wipe the group lol
 

zedina

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low rate to me is ALMOST what i had with my fishing server, it was up 4 months it had 161 accounts made and i played it quite alot, i only managed level 30...

i cant remeber my highest level player, might have been 40+ tbh and that wasnt low rate enough for me. 40 after 4 months tells me i need ot cut my exp alot.

a true low rate just isnt what the majority of players want... we all say we want it but only the true sadistic players would be prepared to play for a month casual just to make 1 level at 25+



it was the only way a group could kill ZT in my day lol. i quite like the fact that that didnt always work either cos someone in the line would move out and zt would wipe the group lol

FACTS
 

Alecs

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So, why would anyone that doesn't play 16h a day play Mir? Just to run around getting 1 hit? Doesn't sound much fun for them. You know, the propose of a GAME. Failed 'something to prove' logic aside, I'm yet to see a real low-rate. Everyone always says it will be, then people are 30 in 2 days.

You don't have to play 16h a day but you can't expect a casual gamer to be almost as strong as a dedicated player in a MMORPG. There are countless games where you play in equal conditions no matter what, but MMORPGs are not one of them.

I used to play a very low rate server and there was a big difference between us low levels. Some spent months to get a couple more lvls, better equipment or some refines, etc. Even if the stats weren't so different, very little more DC/MC/SC would make a big difference at those levels.
 

LightBringer

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The main issue with a "True Low Rate" most of the time levelling up feels lack luster.

People love hitting the 'core levels' 22/33/40 etc as they know they can get new weapons etc and spells
IF you get to 26, grind a month to hit 27, it better be worth while else people cba (no one will spend 14 months+ to get to level 40 if the previous levels are lack luster)

Any rate can appeal to the majority as long as you balance the time spent / reward given along side content available.
 

astrix

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wrote a paragraph then deleted. due to fact is its nothing nobody aint seen or read before. best advice i can give low rates wont work. people dont have time to endlessness grind now days with 0 reward. med or highrate will keep more active users before every 1 quits before the *prime hype starts*
 

holo

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How much power difference should be between someone who plays 4 hours and someone who plays 16 hours? Taking the Mir model, 400% more powerful. That to me is just stupid, and why so many players give up. Taking the WoW model, the 4 hours player could do some hard core raiding, buy tokens with RL money for consumables/extra gear and be done in time to put the kids to bed. If they were skilled, they could be as powerful as the 16 hours player. Compare the user counts of Mir and WoW?... It's funny, on WoW, most people consider the 16 hours players who only does easy content to be the casual. I suppose it's the difference between western MMOs and eastern ones, west value skill and ability over time spent.

As for getting hung up on the low exp rate, levelling wouldn't and shouldn't really matter on the server, it will feel lack lustre because it's not the focus of the server. The levelling system would be there as a soft gear reset, to keep things interesting month to month, not as a goal. It's instead of capping the server and raising the level every so often. WoW releases new gear every few months that does something similar, to keep the game fresh and depreciate old content.

Hitting a new level would need to be important, a whole new set of gear might be enough? The difficulty is in making the new item level sufficiently large enough an upgrade, while not too large to create power creep. This is something even WoW has issues with.
 

WelshSteel

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Make your server, if everything is well thought out and major changes to some systems have their possible faults/abuses accounted for people will play and eventually even the selfish toads will. You can't convince these kind of mentalities, which is what you are essentially trying to do, they have a fetish for blowing their load on new servers, dominating as hard as they can and then once the majority of pawns have left, they try and suckle as much content out of the Mir developer as possible, server is dead in 1-x months, rinse and repeat.

You seem to know what elements make a healthy server, I may offer some input if I cba, other people know what makes a healthy server too but they don't because their intention is to make a huge and quick profit off those people with fetishes for domination.

Why would anyone play countless hours just to be a little stronger than a casual player? If I'm to spend my time playing I want to 1 hit casuals.

Talk about kicking yourself in the bollox.

There are countless games where you play in equal conditions no matter what, but MMORPGs are not one of them.

What drivel, nobody is questioning quality work rate for gear that gives advantages but you defend the simple practice of grinding for advantage, meaning an idiot who grinds from day 1 and doesn't stop can easily pawn off a smart player or an E-sport veteran. Thing is, some major mmo's are balanced around numbers (meaning high gear scores/lvls are far less relevant) but Mir does not have that luxury with it's usercount, 1v1 and small grp pvp is the most likely, which is what new Mir privates need to balance themselves around.

You can't simply stick to the narrative "this is how mmorpg's are", the UC of this genre is dwindling every year, the genre needs to evolve instead of pandoring to simple fetsih's. GL Holo if you plan to battle through!
 

Alecs

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What drivel, nobody is questioning quality work rate for gear that gives advantages but you defend the simple practice of grinding for advantage, meaning an idiot who grinds from day 1 and doesn't stop can easily pawn off a smart player or an E-sport veteran. Thing is, some major mmo's are balanced around numbers (meaning high gear scores/lvls are far less relevant) but Mir does not have that luxury with it's usercount, 1v1 and small grp pvp is the most likely, which is what new Mir privates need to balance themselves around.

You can't simply stick to the narrative "this is how mmorpg's are", the UC of this genre is dwindling every year, the genre needs to evolve instead of pandoring to simple fetsih's. GL Holo if you plan to battle through!

Well, Mir is about grinding endlessly. If you want to change it to something else, do it and maybe I'll play but don't expect the current to be better by cutting any kind of progress and having every player stuck at the same level.
 

kingdomgm

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i think most server fail because they havnt been tested by them selfs or asking on here for a few testers to get on there server and level it out for a couple of weeks in a closed beta, servers are just thrown out on here to make cash, some have great ideas here and there but dont get the basic caves or items right,
and i for one wouldnt want to spend hours grinding out to have some one 10 levels before me be on my level,
 

WelshSteel

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Well, Mir is about grinding endlessly.

Yep, that's Mir's default core but we can do better than leave it at default and expand it to reach all different types of players.

Players with the most time and efficiently used their time have usually always been ahead of the pack, long grinders earn lvls, money AND a chance of added items and if there is mining involved they will cover that too, usually with an alt and there are no real negatives to these practices.

Valkyrie server, although with it's faults, forced grinders to make decisions, you could grind but barely any drops, Epic bosses all over the world were spawning with chance of insane gear, you want to carry on grinding? Mines were filled mobs way better than your average zombie and you could only hit a wall with a pickaxe 10 times at most so you had to keep moving it, no simple alt job (barely anyone did that!). Mindless/Easy grinding advancing had been knocked on the head with "you better find a guild and compete for these bosses when they appear", although this brought the huge negative of the top guilds gaining too much strength through gear and legendary skills.

Anyway, players are eventually discouraged from Mir because lvls matter too heavily, developers who add very powerful new/legendary skills don't think about the fallout of only a handful of people getting them, makes those handful of people very happy but completely pisses off the rest, if they add in powerful gear on top of all that it just ends up putting more fire on the inferno.

For Mir to do better :
lvls almost need to be irrelevant, a good few major mmo's have done this...but they hide further lvl progression through gearscore advancement (basically a **** practice), thing is, with all those games you have no chance of dropping gear or degrading gear, so Mir can do better. Lvling can simply be an introduction into the game, like on Archeage, they advanced the lvling system with later patches but in a smart way, you can ascend your character (lvl 55 then Ascend 1-7), each ascend lvl gives a points that can be used to change some of your skills to be tailored better to certain things, not stronger, tailored.

Players with time want to go after bosses or pvp with their guild, failing that grind, if you don't make grinding about lvling and simply getting much stronger then what do you do? Jamie's Marble added lvled mobs, a lvl 7 monster is crazy strong and fast, like a super zuma guardian of old, much fun and with a super drop, grinders can keep grinding an area for the chance to spawn these. For going deeper into caves, you can add in map bonuses like primordial has done, these maps are non RTable, they should come with more rewards, also Mir is in desperate need of an ability/item skill that can stop players from using Town Teleports/DE's, you should have to fight for more reward and good PvP'ers or those fishing for pvp should be rewarded for investing time away from doing something else where they'll get "less bothered".
Grinding for weapon lvls with rng stat gains that can be reset and you have to start all over again is another avenue away from simple lvl gains, hunting for certain types of crafting items another one.

Gear power needs to be thought out better, Valkyrie signifcantly nerfed the ridiculous stacking of stats like attack speed/freezing etc but extremely rare gear even though hard grafted by killing extremely hard bosses over and over needed to be toned down, Gear can't simply have both PvE advantages and PvP advantages. Also you can be more inventive with gear instead of adding in raw power, you could add actives or triggers to them (untargetable for a few seconds for instance), instead of items being over 50% of the reason that "nab" got rekt.

It completely depends on how capable the Dev is, how determined and about working smart not hard, MMO's can break if you didn't account for certain things (make sure everything works!), a few players/guild will abuse it once found, although at least with lvling advantages being out the window it at least can remove that headache. I could go in deeper, I didn't even cover practices that could help people with less time, and how Guilds and bonuses should work, anyway fml long ass post.
 
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Piff1

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Leave the super low rates to Sanj tbh, he does them well and seem's to have most of the Users that like them sort of rates on lock down.
 

LightBringer

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I think the main thing behind deviating to far away from 'what Mir is', means you are going to make a game with mediocre game-play and graphics without the nostalgia (that's why people really still play Mir?)

I am all up for people bringing a fresh approach to Mir as I like to see servers flourish!

As long as you have the content and features to keep people occupied then it should work, I would be interested to see a Mir server with an almost hard cap on it; so rather than people contending for being the highest level, there is a much closer fight between people for that slightly better gear.
 

zedina

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From my own experience..

If its exp too low, ppls will tend to play few week (1-3) then quit. If exp its too high, there will remain only the casuals which are few, and they tend to go away where the grinders are at.

I think @Sanjian learned a lesson from his low rate fishing and probably right now works on a mir2. Which is kinda nice, as mir2 definitely needs some fresh air.
 

LightBringer

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To be fair, both Mir2 and Mir3 could do with a breath of fresh air!
Very few things are 'original'.

It's why i like Sanj; he does what HE wants to see in a server which tends to mean a lot of new ideas and features which is always nice to see!
 

holo

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I think the main thing behind deviating to far away from 'what Mir is', means you are going to make a game with mediocre game-play and graphics without the nostalgia (that's why people really still play Mir?)

I am all up for people bringing a fresh approach to Mir as I like to see servers flourish!

As long as you have the content and features to keep people occupied then it should work, I would be interested to see a Mir server with an almost hard cap on it; so rather than people contending for being the highest level, there is a much closer fight between people for that slightly better gear.
I suppose it depends on what you define "what mir is". To me, it's about the social experience. Group hunting with my guild, killing bosses with friends in a reasonably large group. PvPing with my guild vs what I'd call frenemys. Competing for limited resources, bosses, towns, trying to get them to drop gear etc. Hunting for gear or skills.

That's what mir always was for me. Levelling was just something I was forced to do to be able to do the fun stuff. Soloing things felt pointless, I could be playing single player games for that. Soloing bosses frankly is a waste of a boss. If it's soloable, a dev cannot let it drop well or it unbalances a server. Even when I was young and had huge amounts of time to level and was able to compete with the highest levelers, it still felt like it was merely the barrier of entry to get to the fun stuff really.

The nostalgia would very much be there. The content at the start would be limited to early mir areas. There's no need to add stuff like ice cave when players are sub 30.

I was originally thinking a hard cap, but I think there would be even more objection to that. Plus they get stale after a while. Look at WoW between patches/expansions. Having a soft cap, which once broken speeds up the rest of the server, seems like it could be the best of both worlds. The levels can keep going, and once they do hit a new level they gain access to things the rest of server don't have for possibly weeks. The casuals aren't completely put out because while what they had is devalued, they can also level quicker now to obtain the same new stuff, and again compete.