The Mir 2 Community is a disaster zone. Here is why.

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Wabbit

Dedicated Member
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Dec 2, 2012
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Hey,


Longtime Euro Mir player here.


So, what has become apparent to me after watching various servers go up and down, is that the Mir 2 community (I was never a part of Mir 3 really, so can only comment on Mir 2 and the servers that go up) ****ing LOVES IT when a private server goes under.


I read on LomCN "lol this server uses these files, GOOD LUCK" and "If I was running a server, I wouldnt do what you are doing, you suck", to paraphrase. It seems that the pool for Mir 2 private server players is quite small. And a not insignificant percentage of that audience has at least attempted to run their own private server, or has some investment in the process of servers, be it a knowledge of the files, an ex gm etc.


Then, there is another not insignificant portion of the community who has not done this, but demands a level of perfection on the scale of a funded company, despite knowing about the challenges they face with buggy server files etc.


The same problems crop up again and again, "You are not dealing with cheaters!", "your files suck", "you made the wrong rates", "the bug that I encountered is far more important than any informed decision you are making about the running of your server"


What I'm trying to say is this: The Mir 2 community, as it stands, is so negative, so down on anybody with the time, money and inclination to run a server, that nothing is getting off the ground for much longer than 6 months and staying above 100 players.


What we all want, despite which rates we each prefer, is consistency, somewhere we can go back to and find our character, without having to build them up again. Yet the rate of complaining not only serves to damage the willpower of those who run the server, who no doubt have other pressing matters in their lives besides running a private server of a poorly coded Korean MMO, but also the negative comments on forums drive away people who might have otherwise given the server a go. It looks bad. And it only spirals down, never up.


We need to be more patient. If a legit licensed operation started TODAY, how long would you give them to get the server "launch ready". 3 months? Id hope you'd say 6 months if you really cared about the longevity of the project. But often we join a server mere weeks, even days into it getting its IP for the first time.


So if you gave a legit operation to go from opening the doors of the office on the first day to launching into gold from beta 6 months, why do we expect 1 or 2 people, running a server in their spare time, to have all the answers and all the bugs fixed in no time at all? Should this 1 person spend a year testing a server in isolation, just them running round, in the hope of finding every possible bug?


See, heres what I see happening, dear reader, who clearly rates Mir very highly if you are even passing your eyes over this text:
- The pool of past fans and potential private server players gets smaller and smaller over the coming year or two, to the point where theres not enough people, with enough faith, interest and investment to support a private server for any length of time, or in any great numbers. Until the eventual fall off leads to an increasing lack of interest to the point where there is nobody even willing to run a server that is particularly worth playing outside of the the enjoyment of themselves and their friends, for a weekend or two.


- We need to give each private server time.
- Be wary of the perception we are sending to our increasingly smaller community by our forum posts, and be mindful when reading ourselves, that those who feel wronged shout the loudest, and there may well be a silent majority enjoying the server, which will eventually die through natural drop off and a lack of new players.
- If we have knowledge, offer support, in private messages to the server owners, on how to fix bugs or overcome problems, and not simply try to shame and bully them into listening to your fantastic fix-all solution, despite not having any of the server-end information that may inform them differently.
- If you like a server, its rates and setup, but things are laggy or buggy, stick around, or keep coming back to that server once a week or 2 weeks, to show the owner that you still want to play, and they still have hits on their project.


You may disagree with me, that's fine. However if we don't, through careful consideration, make a concious effort to protect our community, and support where we otherwise might not have to ensure the survival of something we like, we may lose this community and more importantly, this game forever.


Either way, this hostility to your fellow fans of Mir has got to stop.


Please discuss.
 
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hershire

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I agree with most of your post, i think people lose faith because of the money grabbing servers that pop up and go down in 3 months. They host their servers in their basements with little to no actual overhead costs and basically steal money from players.

Then there's a few servers like mine where we spend the money up front not really looking to make a profit but simply cover the costs of dedicated hosts , web site , files servers etc.. and the players who have been scorned by the fly by night servers are basically afraid to donate or put time into their characters for fear of losing all they worked hard to achieve like so many times in the past.

I think the dedicated players are really what makes a server survive those low population times, i went through a period of about 2-3 months where i was lucky to have 10 active people online at the same time , but i bit the bullet and pushed through it as best i could.

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned we do this in our spare time as a hobby this isnt a real job for most of us. We have families and i for one am not home very much i usually work out of town for 1-3 months at a time so when i do get home im sorry but i leave my pc off and inform everyone how to get a hold of me in case of emergency, most people understand but you still get the odd guy who will flame you or your server for the 1 week you take off lol.

One thing i notice about the server hoppers is they always tend to complain that its hard to catch up to the top players, but really those people are the loyal ones that log in almost every day and put the time into their characters so you kind of run into a moral dilemma should you make it easy to catch up to the guys whove put countless hours into their characters or risk scaring off someone that will probably jump on the next new server anyways leaving you with pissed off loyalists.

I try to make it easy to get into the main stream population and let the guilds take it from there and it has worked so far.

Interested to see other peoples opinions on your post it was very well thought out and intellectual for a change!
 

Tyraes

Golden Oldie
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Wabbit my friend you speak so much truth about the Mir community of today it's unreal. People demand and expect professional server's within weeks yet little do they know that Mir was created by a professional team of developers which probably consisted of atleast 15 people!

Nowadays server owners range between 1-4 which isn't the problem because at most these people don't actually bring any innovation to Mir what so ever. At best they add in some weapons, armours and maybe maps. Although I do give credit to the odd few servers that have actually made an effort in what they do and keep up their efforts throughout the server life but this is rare. Rare because like you said server owners give up due to the lack of people that are about and those that are around are generally arseholes.

But yeah, another problem occurs when players log onto a new server and play for about a week then quit after they realise they are not going to be the "highest level character" on the server due to some players having spent hours and hours leveling. You'll often see a server gain 20-50, sometimes even more players when it comes out then rapidly drop in numbers as the weeks go by just to this sole reason.

Players generally have no faith or trust in a server owner due to being let down in the past by complete idiots which to be honest is how I've felt in the past.

Like you said Wabbit player's expect too much and give near enough no support.
 

NightScare

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Spot on, its why i always take my servers down in a week or so, as its just not worth the hassle.

Im also sitting on a HR, ive been working on for the past 9months, but i wouldn't dream of ever releasing it lol.....


Saying that, i do enjoy trolling server owners........
 
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Far

tinmymouthpl0x
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Spot on, its why i always take my servers down in a week or so, as its just not worth the hassle.

Im also sitting on a HR, ive been working on for the past 9months, but i wouldn't dream of ever releasing it lol.....


Saying that, i do enjoy trolling server owners........

This is why the community is in the sewers, because server owners can't handle criticism. One mention of "your server isn't good" and the owner cries, shuts down the server and complains that the community doesn't appreciate it so I'm not going to bother.

You've apparently worked hard on a server for 9 months, yet you won't put it up for everyone to enjoy, just because a few members might not like it? That's beyond selfish and an idiotic approach to life.
 

TravisW

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Sep 4, 2007
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Like this community being in the sewers is anything new? Has been ever since I've joined, and apparently is not going to change anytime soon.
No one believes in teamwork unless it is for their server and theirs alone. "I'm gonna have the best one and to hell with everyone else!!!"
"I'm going to take a source that was worked on for the community, abandoned as usual, and then make them my own, and hey come check out my cash shop!"
This site should change to LOMIN. I=individual for the thick ones.
I've given up on the idea of opening a server, let the ones who can program or have someone to program for them have it. Special bastards.
 

SmavidDavid

Playing Legend of Mir 5
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Jun 13, 2006
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Worthing is depressing.
Rant is spot on agree with most.

HOWEVER i'm more interested in who he is, join date & number of posts bought this to my attention. Its ok to rant, but by sounds of his posts he has been here longer than 4days, why hide behind new account. (I should be a spy)
 

Far

tinmymouthpl0x
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Rant is spot on agree with most.

HOWEVER i'm more interested in who he is, join date & number of posts bought this to my attention. Its ok to rant, but by sounds of his posts he has been here longer than 4days, why hide behind new account. (I should be a spy)

If you were a real spy you'd have found out all his previous account details already. Not a good spy.

My guess is it's his first account, but only just registered and has just leached off the community these many years - hence the huge irony in this post.
 

Wabbit

Dedicated Member
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Dec 2, 2012
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Well not really.

If your definition of leached is been a silent reader for many years, recently re kindled by the Reunited server and its facebook excitement (at the time) which has brought me back into the fold of Mir 2, then yes, I am a leacher.

If however you deem my opinion less valid because of the age of my account and the post count in comparison to yours and other old/popular voices on the LOMCN site, then no, you are wrong. In fact you are guilty of a logical fallacy, arguably "Appeal to Tradition" or "Appeal to Antiquity", that because an ideal/person is older they are therefore more right than a new idea. Both ideas should in fact be evaluated on merit, and not be judged by its age relative to the opposing idea.

The world is flat and not round is an old idea, but on the balance of overwhelming evidence we now know this not to be true. Yet back in the day it was judged to be an outlandish idea, many old scholars laughed at the idea. Now this is not to say that the content of my post has "overwhelming evidence" to support it, I use that example simply to highlight the error that could be made if you judge your view on any particular subject on the age of the idea and person alone.

My observations in the original post stand alone at this point in time. You can either agree or disagree with my observations, however to judge them because of my involvement, active or otherwise, in the community in comparison to other more well known and longer established members, would make you no more intellectually advanced than flat earth theorists.

Its very easy to be negative and suspicious, however I would appeal that you rather discuss the point at hand rather than the age of my account.

Cheers.
 
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hershire

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lol just looked @ mine joined 2004 , with 130 posts maybe i should start bumping my own threads lol
 

NightScare

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This is why the community is in the sewers, because server owners can't handle criticism. One mention of "your server isn't good" and the owner cries, shuts down the server and complains that the community doesn't appreciate it so I'm not going to bother.

You've apparently worked hard on a server for 9 months, yet you won't put it up for everyone to enjoy, just because a few members might not like it? That's beyond selfish and an idiotic approach to life.

Lol, its not that i wont put it up because a few members wont enjoy it, if they dont enjoy it they wont play it.

I wont put it because of the 30 or so idiots (Mainly not from the UK, ) who do enjoy it will just whine,bitch and complain about stupid things there tiny little heads cant comprehend.

For example.

Sphinx 2.3 - WAA WAA im Romanian , u've put delay on FW, wizards crap now we cant spam our 10Minute firewall everywhere.

Waa Waa Waa, Warriors TDB ignores AC...(Because i can do anything about this?....)

Waa Waa, im Romanian and i just totally suck, which must mean that every class except mine is over-powered.



You get the picture.

If they could code some sort of Blanket Ban on all IP's that arnt from the UK, i'd probably release, though i'd only get about 3 players...

The mir community is also in the shits because players exspect server owners to do all the work for free, and the minute anyone puts in a game gold shop (LIKE ANY OTHER MMORPG), there flamed to ****, i mean seriously guys an MMORPG is a business, not a ****ing charity you dont see World of warcraft going, Hey guys come play this MMORPG we worked for a year on, completely free of charge!. we'll just run these servers out of our own back pocket wooopty doo.

The survival of any game is made on Money, and unless your rich (Highly doubful in this community)
Or have a very good job (Which then means you dont have the time to make a server anyway)>

Its just not going to survive, this community should be supporting game shops models, as with Income comes Innovation and the ability to hire people to do work on your server your otherwise incapable of doing.
 
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Far

tinmymouthpl0x
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My point comes not from your join date or post count, but from your judgement on the mir community.

Quoted from Tyraes,

Like you said Wabbit player's expect too much and give near enough no support.

If in fact this was your conclusion to the community being a 'disaster zone'. Where has your support in this community been throughout your time of playing private servers?

Is the quote "Judge not that ye be not judged" valid here?

I have a 9 year registration date and high post count because i'm a long standing member of this community, one which has supported this community through numerous changes. I understand your opinion, and agree in some senses, however i don't think you can really give valid judgement about our community until you've been a part of it.

LOMCN is what it is, 90% of private servers will never last because everyone has eyes bigger than their stomach. Allowing everyone to set up and run a server may be positive in the sense that creativity can come from anyone, however having ideas doesn't give you the ability and stamina to create a long running server interesting enough to keep users active.

Legend of mir was created by a team of 100's of developers, yes most of the work has already been completed, but i'd bet that their NPC, quest, map coordinator and mob spawn consisted of more than 1 person.

If you can get a small group of people together with a similar view on destination then what you're saying could work, but in a small community like this its usually every man for himself and everyone with a different thought on direction.
 

NightScare

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Legend of mir was created by a team of 100's of developers, yes most of the work has already been completed, but i'd bet that their NPC, quest, map coordinator and mob spawn consisted of more than 1 person.

If you can get a small group of people together with a similar view on destination then what you're saying could work, but in a small community like this its usually every man for himself and everyone with a different thought on direction.


This i agree with you on, but you'd need something to motivate said people for a long period of time.

Legend of mirs 100's of developers were motivated by there pay Packet.


Every single MMORPG development team, was motivated by there pay packet, this is a capitalism world
 

Tyraes

Golden Oldie
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Maybe I should have said "most" player's expect too much and give near enough no support because that is true. The few minority like yourself have helped in the past.
 

Tai

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Excellent thread... needless to say I agree as do many others who have read but not replied. Usually I would have something fairly substantial to contribute but unfortunately I have completely moved on from mir now. Every dog has its day, as they say.

Just saying it makes me feel kinda bad though so I'ma go fix mirfiles to redeem myself.
 

Wabbit

Dedicated Member
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Dec 2, 2012
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My point comes not from your join date or post count, but from your judgement on the mir community.

Quoted from Tyraes,



If in fact this was your conclusion to the community being a 'disaster zone'. Where has your support in this community been throughout your time of playing private servers?

Is the quote "Judge not that ye be not judged" valid here?

I have a 9 year registration date and high post count because i'm a long standing member of this community, one which has supported this community through numerous changes. I understand your opinion, and agree in some senses, however i don't think you can really give valid judgement about our community until you've been a part of it.

.

Ok so.


Whilst I acknowledge your point about you having contributed to the community in the past, be it monitory, creatively or lending your expertise to the community and furtherment of the game, I think there are a few important distinctions I have to make.*

At no point am I claiming to have been actively involved in the furtherment of the community, therefore I cannot be called hypocritical or my observation labeled as ironic.*I was observing and giving my thoughts on going forwards.

My post was about the temperament of certain sections of the community. This is an observation made over the time since the reunited server first started to be discussed. However due to the wonders of the Internet I have been able to look back through the archives of forums, specifically but not limited to Lomcn and it's server discussion threads.

I have seen examples of multiple members wishing a server to fail before it's started because of the files it uses. My point being that non posting members of the community, who play and donate and pay, may pre judge someone's hard work before they've even hit the link to their site.

I therefore state again, my observations stand in isolation of my perceived experience, and should be judged as so.

You either agree with a statement or not. If you give any less merit to a statement that you would otherwise agree wholeheartedly with, because of your prejudice against your perceived experience of the speaker, then that is a very backwards thing to do indeed.

I will no longer discuss my perceived experience by other community members because it frankly does not matter.

Please discuss the statement I made, and wether you agree or not and more importantly, why.

---------- Post Merged at 10:56 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:38 PM ----------

Moving past that, what can the community do to resurrect Mir as a game?

I have seen it mentioned on Facebook that the crowd sourcing website could be an option.*

Is we made still interested in having a western operation of Mir and how much would a crowd sourced project have to raise to get off the ground?

---------- Post Merged at 11:00 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:38 PM ----------

When I say resurrect, I mean the launch of an officially sanctioned and staffed server open to the public at large, not to imply that Mir is currently dead, which it is not.

---------- Post Merged at 11:12 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:38 PM ----------

Alternatively, could there be a great pooling of thoughts and a sharing of knowledge by past and present server operators.

To form a server of a few "staff", respected for various aspects by the community, who would be able to respond quickly and cover a broad range of emerging issues?

Even greater than that could their be a push for a centralised hub, so that when people log on they have a list of servers they could join. I'm aware that various patch issues would be a problem, but if people wanted to have multiple clients at least they would be aware of other servers that they could seek out. Keep the pool of players in one place. Is this technically possible? If it is, could it actually happen?

I lack the technical know how, the money or the time to play any meaningful part in the actual fabrication of these ideas (although I would donate to a kickstarter). However I suppose one contribution is the actual floating of the ideas and possibly seeing how I could help in facilitating the action?

Thoughts? What can this community network actually achieve that is greater than its doing already? Have the players of Mir reached the ceiling of what we can do? Or can we do more collectively rather than a series of individual efforts?
 

NightScare

Legend
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we can.


But we wont.


End of discussion really, you can sit and discuss it till the Russians invade Europe, aint going to happen.
 

Wabbit

Dedicated Member
Dedicated Member
Dec 2, 2012
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Why don't we give it a shot.

Genuine question? Who would be up for a collective effort? With 3 or 4 server owners and a team of part time coders to help out with emerging problems. A ceasefire of hostility to "them and me".

2 servers. 1 high 1 low. And with multiple people behind the scenes a certain accountability for corruption.

No "pay to win" items. Only a donation system to help brake even on running costs.

A true labour of love for a game that has a special place in our favourite games list.

I put myself forwards for handling the forums, maybe a middle man between the server staff and the users could be healthy? People have accused me of a few things so far, but Id like to think that I can at least effectively communicate an idea and respond in a way that leaves the reader with no ambiguity in their minds.

So, that's me in. Who of you would like to take a role on a fully realised community effort at creating a credible, long lasting Mir?

---------- Post Merged at 11:36 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:33 PM ----------

I know there's some talented people on these forums who, for whatever reason, are not currently active in the various aspects of running a server.