- Mar 25, 2003
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War is to OP
- Thread starter Corbu
- Start date
- Mar 9, 2005
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Everyone is shouting 'nerf' but not everyone knows what their gameplay is like. You may nerf a warrior because they are OP in PVP but then they may become sh*t in leveling / bossing. Nerfing is not the only solution, you could also bring other classes up to be on par with stronger classes.
- Dec 6, 2013
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In a game with 2 melee classes one designed as a tank one designed as a burst damage but floppy.
The war should be a.speed capped at 4. They should be slow but devastating.
Rage can be buffed or even made passive if speed is reduced. Same as ProField.
If a Sin Can deal 100 per swing at aspeed 8 double slash - thats (example) 10 hits every 5 seconds dealing 1000 damage.
The War should hit 150 per hit at speed 4 tdb - thats (example) 5 hits every 5 seconds - 750damage
In that time the War uses/loses 2Hp pots
The sin uses/loses 4 and a sun pot
Chuck your bigger dealing spells on top and that's where the war gets devastating.. FS for example. A sin should be in and out between FS if caught by a FS it should land a good 400 damage. its slow, it has a cooldown and it needs to land countered with agility.
It really is a no brainer that you cannot have 2 melee classes at the same speed when one is designed to be faster.....
Look at gemms -
Offensive Gems
Storm Gem - War
Prime Stat (mc/sc/dc) all classes
ACC - War, Sin (archer to a degree)
Utility Gems
Poison - War, Sin, Tao
Slow - War, Sin, Archer, Wiz (don't think it affects curse on tao?)
Defensive
Agil - Primarily Sin and Tao - But all classes.
AC - all
MAC - all
MR - all
PR - all
Why do wars have a gem that no other class will get any benefit from? That also negates the assassins advantage and reason of existence..
P.S price doesn't matter - people can buy/find these and have done, please do not use that as an argument because you will fail.. miserably.
This is not point about skills, its a point about additional stats. - Spells will always give a difference between classes but stat allocation should also have limits depending on your class selection.
Its not about whats is easy to make, its about what is achievable...
A Sin cannot get 1500 HP.. why can a war get speed8?
Lastly - look at No3 and No4.
He bought out top end kit for both classes, got his sin to 48 and thought fook me this class is shlt compared to a war... then invested more money into that.
Why? because war are OP.
wiz are also OP but that's a different thread.
The war should be a.speed capped at 4. They should be slow but devastating.
Rage can be buffed or even made passive if speed is reduced. Same as ProField.
If a Sin Can deal 100 per swing at aspeed 8 double slash - thats (example) 10 hits every 5 seconds dealing 1000 damage.
The War should hit 150 per hit at speed 4 tdb - thats (example) 5 hits every 5 seconds - 750damage
In that time the War uses/loses 2Hp pots
The sin uses/loses 4 and a sun pot
Chuck your bigger dealing spells on top and that's where the war gets devastating.. FS for example. A sin should be in and out between FS if caught by a FS it should land a good 400 damage. its slow, it has a cooldown and it needs to land countered with agility.
It really is a no brainer that you cannot have 2 melee classes at the same speed when one is designed to be faster.....
Look at gemms -
Offensive Gems
Storm Gem - War
Prime Stat (mc/sc/dc) all classes
ACC - War, Sin (archer to a degree)
Utility Gems
Poison - War, Sin, Tao
Slow - War, Sin, Archer, Wiz (don't think it affects curse on tao?)
Defensive
Agil - Primarily Sin and Tao - But all classes.
AC - all
MAC - all
MR - all
PR - all
Why do wars have a gem that no other class will get any benefit from? That also negates the assassins advantage and reason of existence..
P.S price doesn't matter - people can buy/find these and have done, please do not use that as an argument because you will fail.. miserably.
This is not point about skills, its a point about additional stats. - Spells will always give a difference between classes but stat allocation should also have limits depending on your class selection.
Its not about whats is easy to make, its about what is achievable...
A Sin cannot get 1500 HP.. why can a war get speed8?
Lastly - look at No3 and No4.
He bought out top end kit for both classes, got his sin to 48 and thought fook me this class is shlt compared to a war... then invested more money into that.
Why? because war are OP.
wiz are also OP but that's a different thread.
- Mar 20, 2014
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I like your description of the gems, ie offensive, defensive etc, a solution might be limit smash set to defensive gems only, it would be good if there was more choice in offensive gems
such as + fire.
Bear in mind, it use to be 3 classes. Warrior can't suddenly be designated "Tank" because the Assassin came along.
They were originally "designed" to be high HP, highest melee damage and highest physical defence.
I love how some of you guys come into Mir thinking you know everything lol, even the whole conversation about TDB being essential for Warriors is annoying. Take out all the new skills that had been added since euro days and you'd all scream haha
Acc+6 Speed+7 DC130 warrior, can't even touch a sin with full agil kit on.
Stop talking out of your ass, war's aren't OP you're just extremely poorly kitted and slow in-game on one of the squishiest classess in-game. Tori can toe to toe 3 warriors at once and win simply due to agility.
Any class can be OP in the right hands in the right kit - doesn't change the fact warriors have to spend 10x more to do so.
- Dec 6, 2013
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Seems I touched a nerve?
No need to get offensive little one.
I'm probably (never really considered it) one of the best kitted non rl spenders in the game, if poorly kitted is 93DC without spending a penny then you know something I don't. I also have an Agil Kit, its getting there, 31agil at the moment so back to the drawing board with your insults bud.
CNmortal is one of the slowest players ingame. even im faster than him.. and as you pointed out... im slow. so taking a screeny while playing another person character against a super slow person on your super fast connection really doesn't prove a thing does it....
ACC3 helm, ACC3 belt, ACC 2 bracers +10 acc.. will negate ANY amount of agil anyone could stack.
Like i said Its achievable... achievable OP stats are the problem.
p.s you forgot to mention CN's working with Luck1 vs Luck7.. that wasonly going to go one way with or without the agil.
next?
Acc+10 on a warr is still only 27accuracy.
Which is still not enough to reach 32 agility, which is standard Agil+ bracers boots and belt + the buff spell.
If we go one step further and wear agil armour and agil necky on Tori, you're now having to deal with 37agility.
Then what?
Seems you've got all the answers, so answer that?
- Dec 6, 2013
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acc and agil don't go stat for stat...
3 acc is like 6-7 agil..
+ 10 ACC will negate enough of the 37 agil to land enough hits. add luck7 sword into that and those hits will squash your precious koriBlack.
I do not have all the answers, I just find your tone very insulting today, you cry that wizards are OP but then defend your own class when it is clearly flawed.
You are what we call a greedy player, Only interested in your own class and trying to dominate with it.
I am what you call a balance connoisseur . I would quite like to plate up every class on the same garnish and enjoy them all equally.
be that a 0£ sin vs a £0 war or a £1000 sin vs a £1000 war.
Please do not get me wrong in thinking that my .. "extremely poor kit" should stand up to a £1000 war like No4 or even a £5-600 War like yourself because i don't....
It would be silly of me to argue that factor as there is a completely different investment in time/money/family from each side.
My point is not me VS anyone, its achievable and broken stats.
I stand by my previous post, slow wars down. give them more damage.
Your can't say warriors are not op because a sin can kill a warrior with full agility kit on? what about other class's this isn't WARRIOR vs SINS of mir.
Have you actually done any tests to prove this? because I have. If you are just 1 accuracy below agility, you can still miss. It's not like how it was on Euro that's for sure.
Let me try to explain to you why sins have it good on here. They get Speed+8 for free, permanently on a buff as well as +8 Agility for free, permanently on a buff.
That's roughly 200mill's gold worth of stats. Stats that not only massively increase your dps (that warrior would have to spend to get the same achievement) but at the same time allows you to dodge melee hits from warrs and ofc other sins.
No other class can achieve that type of agility, which is the strength of a sin.
Yes, of course speed+8 on a warr is achievable, but agil32 isnt and never should be. But it's by no means "easy" to get speed+8 on a warrior, and to do so you usually end up sacrificing dc to do so (Swiftgalenecks, swiftgalerings for example)
Wizards are OP because there's absolutely no way to mitigate their damage. You can mitigate Archers/Warrs/Sins damage entirely with agil or MR. The problem is when squishy classes get 2hitted by high-end wizzies but with no way to gem or work towards mitigating it.
You can call me whatever you want and I'll be honest maybe I was a bit too touchy, but it's because you're trying to argue something that's just not right.
Every class in-game currently has an "OP" end-game, yes even Archers and each class had to evolve over time to reach this.
Warriors - Get 8 A.speed/5Slow/Luck7 Dsword.
Assassins - Get Luck 7's/Slow5/Agil kit.
Wizards - Level to 52/get level 3 MagicBooster/Base MC kit.
Archers - Go full DC/Luck7 FateBow/
Now you might be saying, hold on. Warriors End-game is slightly more OP than sins end-game. But that would be justified if the effort put in was greater. It doesn't matter if it's achievable or not, if it's achievable but it's incredibly taxing to do so then you should be rewarded not punished for doing so.
Each of these end-game classes can pretty much 2hit anyone.
Here's the real problem: Those "incredibly taxing" tasks are made far too easy when you put real life money into the game. But none of us are to blame for this. That's where the issue lies and that's imo why you think warriors are OP, because all the ones who run about in speed8 etc etc have paid their way to the top.
The majority of pay2win chars are Warriors. What they don't realise (and why CNmortal was so dumbfounded) was that a pay2win kit for a sin is just as deadly if not more so.
Underlying issue out of all of this is ££££ ruins the game balance. Not that one char is more OP than another.
- Dec 6, 2013
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What used to be and what is are two very different things.
The game launched with 5 classes.Warrior were described as tank and assassins as fast single target damage but squishy.
It should have been tweaked to accommodate 5 classes. (by removing storm gems/ capping speed or removing sin cap)
It wasn't but it isn't too late. Tweaks often happen in these type of games to adjust balance and fix unforeseen "break points"
This game is no longer euro beta, where you had to count between Flaming Swords to dodge the next one, we are not waiting for a patch to introduce EvilCentipede and 5 extra floors in BugCave.
This is a different game to back then, speed, damage, fluidity have all been improved, they do still need balancing.
A war with 8 aspeed is no problem in my eyes if an assassin doesn't exist. The fact they can and are hitting as fast as an assassin, harder and tanking more ontop is a "break point" for that class and needs to be adjusted.
anyone I've given my opinions. (not answers)
BH I hope you are still contemplating the a.speed cap for wars that you mentioned a few months back.
---------- Post Merged at 03:31 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:15 PM ----------
Of course they can still miss, you will never hit everytime regardless of acc>agil ratio.
With 10 acc a war will not miss 60%+ of hits against 37agil, negating the benefit of stacking agil.
P.S I think this is a good thing as all stats should have a counter.
I don't think you get it..
You are arguing that a war has to spend money to match a sins spells...
A Sin cannot spend any amount of money to get +25% (or whatever rage gives) DC on top of +3 items in every slot.....
so is this ok???
a War can match haste but a Sin cant match rage???
p.s i dont want to be able to match rage but wars getting aspeed gems would be like sin only + dc% gems.. in my eyes,
skill for skill stat for stat.
chuck in there some HP% gems for sins aswell because wars start with 3x the HP of a sin and we cant slot that much hp into our kits..
I don't understand this frame of mind at all.
It is never ok to have an OP class at the same level, regardless of "effort"
No class should have a much greater benefit over the other just because it costs more £ to make..
if you truly think that then we cant debate that one any further as its insane to me and we will have to agree to disagree.
again Ill have to disagree. If these broken stats where not achievable they would not be purchasable and therefore would not be ingame and breaking the balance.
You have agreed that these stats do break the game... so why should they remain?
---------- Post Merged at 03:44 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:31 PM ----------
An alternative fix would be to remove the +8 cap on aspeed so that an assassins spell is not negated by gems. I dont think that would be the right answer though as you would end up with +16speed sins and that would also be broken.
That's why I suggest capping wars.
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Problem solved.
Remove +8 cap for sins, make +8 the cap for warriors.
Allow sins to earn more speed onto their kit. When you spend 100m trying to get an extra speed on your kit maybe you'll understand the pain.
Why? sins hitting faster sounds right to me, if warriors can earn more speed so should sins. He makes a valid point.
- Dec 6, 2013
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Its not about me, or understanding pain, its about whats achievable and what shouldnt be. wars matching sins for attack speed shouldn't be, just like sins matching wars for DC shouldn't be and IS NOT. both my opinion on balance of course.
yes, that's why I said
I don't think that would be the right answer though as you would end up with +16speed sins and that would also be broken...
I'm glad we are done here though, hopefully the Team can look at both sides and come up with an alternative. certainly needs some sort of tweak though as we both agreed. that £££ spent character are achieving levels of stats that spoil the game and offer no balance.
wrong. lose the agil and he'd get 2hit.
tbh gotta agree that assassins should be able to get more attack speed , especially as there swing animation takes so f**king long. if you attack a warrior with decent speed you have a 90% chance that he's gonna whack you back before you can get out of range.
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You're arguing that warriors can achieve the same speed as sins. And that sins can't match Warriors DC because of rage and that this is unfair.
Right.
But can a warrior use Hiding and ignore 90% of mobs?
Can a warrior use 1 spell and dodge majority of melee hits?
Can a warrior instantly teleport across maps with a single spell? (even ones you can't RT on)
Can a warrior green poison (negating all regen) a boss permanently?
No because he doesn't have the utility that a sin does. Sins have their strengths and as thus become the ultimate solo class. After playing Tori, I want my own assassin - because they're so fun and they probably suit my playstyle more. Sounds like assassins don't suit your playstyle at all.
Nothing needs changing in reality in between these two classes because both have a means to counter each other. Warriors have brute strength where as sins have DPS and utility.
If ANY class has a right to moan, it's archers who are just too underwhelming (hit hard, but die far too quick)
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