Archers... Current and future...

[thedeath]

heh thx for the topic, finaly an explenation i guess.
to bad you seem to be avoiding the main concern: how do you balance archer in a group envirnoment.

to me wiz has always been a bit of a 'uselesss' class when you where fighting most boss's on ace.
99% of the time you would just be using frostcrunch cause wiz doesnt do much dmg anyway, and if wiz does do damage > it steals the boss of the tank

so now you're adding a ranged class that appearently does more dmg then wiz (tao?): great except: he wont be allowed to use the dmg in a group cause then the tank would have to constantly run after the boss lol.

then there's the obvious fact: war and sin are currently the main single target dps classes, you dont mention them so i'm guessing you want to avoid the topic. most will say archer cant do more dps then war/sin cause it doesnt have to stand near the mob/boss and get hit. so why would you play an archer if it does less dmg then other single target dps classes, cant tank like other single target dps class's and cant really aoe either?

your explenation is great: now it's time to try and figure out if you actualy have a workable solution to the balance
how do you see archer performing in a group with a boss that moves, a war/sin in your party that has to have the boss standing still to hit it (and do the real damage i guess).
i was hoping your plan for archer would prove that it's actualy a class worth playing. so far it's still sounding more like a class you added pure as something different that looks great fun but ends up not being used cause it has nothing to add to the group aspect of the game.

 

[Merc_Draven]

One word The Death, PVP! Sure grinding and boss hunting is all fun but nothing on the pvp element, imo. Archers seem like a fun class. If it has a play style inbetween a wizzard and a warrior, I think we onto a win win. (If balanced and fair) *assassin should be inbetween Warrior and a taoist. I'm sure when the game is open, many many tweaks will be made to classes to crate a fairer system! And if they are pointless to play, then nobody is forcing you to play an Archer class o.0

 

[thedeath]

One word The Death, PVP! Sure grinding and boss hunting is all fun but nothing on the pvp element, imo. Archers seem like a fun class. If it has a play style inbetween a wizzard and a warrior, I think we onto a win win. (If balanced and fair) *assassin should be inbetween Warrior and a taoist. I'm sure when the game is open, many many tweaks will be made to classes to crate a fairer system! And if they are pointless to play, then nobody is forcing you to play an Archer class o.0

oh but i considered archer pvp
lets put it this way: (considering war/sin vs archer here, wiz and tao vs archer would be a bit harder to imagine, both have range to fight back)
- archer has to constantly run arround during pvp (one hit from a war = archer dies),
- archer has no shield or any form of emergency defense (so unlike wizards they cant take the risk of even getting hit a single time)
- archer has to mouseover it's target to hit it, unlike warriors who can hold shift to hit.
- archer has no real aoe attack so it cant aim 'near' the target to hit it, meaning it's gonna be really hard to aim and actualy hit a moving target.
- archer has the chance of missing on attack (so you have to stop for quite some time to aim and shoot, if you miss the warrior he'll hit you for sure)
- archer has traps (which appearently will only be visible to user): question is how are you gonna set them: do you have to stand still to arm them etc?, not to mention it's just a matter of avoiding to be onto the same spot as the archer i guess
- decoy will be an issue with pvp aswell: if you have to cast once to spawn it (aka get cast delay and be frozen in place) and cast again to switch: this'll most likely be a viable escape plan in pvp, but shouldnt really be a viable plan to get any real advantage to win.

in the end archer pvp would be messy, rely purely on how lucky you are that the game lets you hit the target (aka random accuracy + depend on how fast your opponent is moving on your screen + depend on what server feels the opponents position is really at + ...)

 

[Far]

I'm with sanity and frozen on this. I've never seen the archer class, and don't know where in development it is officially, but i'd really recommend copying the way its done officially to get balancing accurate and the spells doing the correct thing, then tweak it if you think it doesn't fit the server style after.

Making a brand new character blind will be so difficult to balance correctly, and you'll only end up copying the style another character / mixing characters together.

There is a thread by DayDie of "will this spell be used" which looks like a larger AoE spell, and the instant response was "no its too powerful". By that you're basically saying that you know how much damage it does and its effect (by a picture) and you've gotten rid of a perfectly good spell (good enough for an official game company to design and know how to use correctly) thinking that it will suddenly make the archer OP.

I know you want to design something new for players, but it seems like you've signed up for the Olympic 100m sprint before you've learnt to walk.

 

[Merc_Draven]

- Archers Should have to run away from Warriors, Assassins like a wizzard
- Archers Should be keeping thier distance at all times
- Same as the Wizzard class -- Would be OP if you could target a player like you could a mob.
- The list Samuel has slapped up, seems the Archer class could potentially have some strong moves in the box (only time will tell)
- I miss attacks on warrior/wizzard/taoist pvping all the time, just need to work on the timing
- Being able to swtich to you're decoy almost feels like a escape plan if some one gets a little too personal in PvP (Could almost counter you're first argument)

not attacking you mate, just flipping the coin.

 

[thedeath]

heh merc i know, except: unlike wizard class (which is used to hit and run)
archer wont really have much in terms of an aoe skill to 'stop' your enemy
aka during pvp you wont be able to use icestorm to first make the enemy walk before you hit him.
i wasnt saying you should/shouldnt be able to target a player, just saying: i cant see how you're gonna make a hit without simply getting 1shot by whatever you're fighting
as for the decoy: i left that semi open, cant judge it till it's there. however it should have delays build in to avoid ppl simply non stop spamming it, and that leaves you open to an easy hit in pvp

 

[Merc_Draven]

Always be a level above everyone so you can repulse em away and shoot em between the eyes!

 

[Jacko]

Always be a level above everyone so you can repulse em away and shoot em between the eyes!

well that's going to be an issue because they don't really have any aoe till higher level and thus will be lower level then wizzies and sins.
which are pretty capable at wrecking an archer i'd say

 

[d1craig]

It's just the fact they don't have a shield that seems to be the subject of everyone's worries about archer atm.

Maybe a little boost in HP possibly 1/3 more than a wizzy.
Maybe some agility aswell. Just make the accuracy passive grant agility aswell or give them a skill that has a +40 agility rating until they have dodged or something.

Tbh the only thing that would make me choose wizard over archer ( from what I've heard/read ) is the lack of AoE levelling skills. But that's the same with all the classes I start with ie. I always end up making a wizard once I have reach 35ish because levels are so hard to come by lol.

 

[SlippitySchlong]

As long as you make it as close to official as possible i don't care.

 

[thedeath]

lol slippity: archer is nowhere near official (no intention to be that way)
and it' not just shield.
- shield is obviously a major thing for wiz: however even if archer had double the hp, you'd still not bring him to kill a boss.
more hp doesnt balance the lack of defense (it just means you'll need to use an infinite amount of hp pots to keep up)
- archer has no repulse so dont see why outleveling outers would even matter
- archer also hasnt got an aoe that actualy lets you chose where it hits (lightning type attacks arent really used in pvp are they ) < this means in pvp you'll be lucky to get 1 hit on an enemy, that 1 hit doesnt do enough dmg to a sin or warrior to even make him use a son, it's just a hp medium/large at best (and this is from lvl 40+ archers lol)

 

[d1craig]

Well by the sounds of it it needs a big change.

Make them stat agility and make agility boost there dc. Would work similar ue.

 

[omenking]

This Shield problem for Archers, couldnt you just introduce a spell called 'Deflection' which would deflect any melee attacks made by the attacker for x amount of seconds with a small cooldown maybe?

 

[mir2pion]

developments need to stick to 1 version only as EU/KR/CN versions are all completely different and when you mix stuff it causes so many problems.

EU version ?? Is there any such mir?

As to archer char balance on those KR/CN servers - aren't they adding archer char to ongoing servers where most chars are very high level? And they make archer overpowered, so that pple who make new char have a chance to get anywhere level wise relative to average server levels?

Also KR/CN are not IMO known for balancing mir, its more like they don't care much about balancing or make the game fair, at least that's the impression I got over the past decade when patches to the official mirs were slap dashed on without much worrying about anything. I don't know about looking towards KR/CN as paragons of balance when it comes to mir.

 

[d1craig]

People think that because it's official that it is the best way. Private servers try much harder to please the players, euro Mir as far as I remember never fixed anything To make the players happier.

 

[Sugram]

CresentMoon:
A powerful arrow unleashed with such power, accuracy and fury that it penetrates anything that stands in its path. (A Line of attack e.g. lightning).

Depending on this skills strength, it is very likely to completely change the leveling behaviour of the class. If it beats lightning in damage, then based on acem server an archer would most likely outlevel wizards, until wizards get flamefield.

Since the skill is so far down the list does this mean it would be available very late in game or even a drop only skill such as flamefield? IMHO such skills that completely change the leveling(which is what players of mir will spend most time on) of a class, should be available early and not be rare drop only skills*.

The main point is, that a situation, where you have CrescentMoon as drop only skill for level 44, which costs 200M on market and makes an archer who has it level slightly faster than wizards(without FF), and multiple times faster than other archers, should be avoided.

*This would apply for wizards flamefield as well. Now everyone would argue that flamefield is too overpowered (to be available as a standard early) skill, but that is very much an off topic discussion and please take it elsewhere, since it has nothing to do with archer.

 

[SlippitySchlong]

lol slippity: archer is nowhere near official (no intention to be that way)

No intention, why?

 

[Scorpian]

I was watching Sonic's stream yesterday and all I can say is kudos to whoever coded the Archer, particularly the arc on highshot and the trail effect

 

[MiloFoxburr]

No intention, why?

Shanda's version of Mir plays completely differently than any version of European Mir. So unless you implement all the other Shanda balance changes (No Flinch, Auto Run etc) & stats you wouldn't have an official Shanda Archer here.

Admittedly iMir (Where Archer class is from) is much closer to Korean Mir than their Main server but the differences are still pretty big when it comes to balance. They play a much faster style of Mir

 

[Nemo]

As far as I can tell from PLAYING shanda versions of mir, and seeing videos of their archer. They don't care, in the slightest, about balance.. I'm not sure where people are getting their information on thinking 'official = balance'. That's like saying euro was balanced.. HA, far from it, and they didn't listen to players opinions like we have been... Nor do most 'big development companies'. They do it how they want and tell the players what it will be and they deal with it..

As far as I can tell, what shanda cares about is giving people big shiny things and massive fugly wings for their players to look at.

Having actually played, unlike most of you guessing' I can see it being 'fairly' balanced at the moment. Noones saying it will be perfect and wont need tweaking., I think you'll find every game with more than 1 archetype option does...