Important Reboot today at 1:30PM - various balance changes

[Jamole]

... What good is testing at medicore levels and medicore kit? Seriously, speak some sense. Eventually everyone in the game will be X level with all spells and sick kit. The IRL cash problem is exactly the reason why Mir is doomed because it's a pay 2 win game, but that's a separate argument that has no base in the current one we're trying to have.

We have to test with end-game kits and equal levels because that's the highest possible power of each class. When all classes are at their highest power you can finally start seeing who's stronger and who's weaker.

I refer to my previous post in another thread: http://www.lomcn.org/forum/showthre...-for-mods-devs&p=998048&viewfull=1#post998048

about why sins cannot simply "shadow dash in" when a wizz is casting blizzard/Met. The very second blizz/Met is casted the damage is already going off. Shadowstepping into a wizzard casting blizz/met on himself is literally suicide. Believe me, after pvping with EW2 and Adaephon many times, I realised how hopeless it was. The only thing you can do when a wizz casts blizz or met on themself is wait.

Even if we were to ShS in, their MagicShield absorbs 66.6% of ALL our damage. Example: Instead of hitting 100+100 like we would on say an archer, we hit 33+33 on a wizard. So we do as you say, simply run away. Not sure about you, but I don't think I've ever killed a wizard by running away.

The whole point of this argument is that Sins are essentially screwed against wizards (and, sadly warriors) in almost every matchup endgame assuming both equally skilled. We're getting very close to end-game now and sins are starting to wonder what niche they fulfill. Gemming has only further increased the speed at which we reach end-game, it isn't the problem nor the solution.

When did I say in any of my posts that we should be testing all of this in 'mediocre' levels and kit? Have you even read my posts? Don't start acting like the big man and telling me to 'speak sense' when you aren't even reading my posts properly.

As for wizzies, I agree they are OP, FF does far too much dmg and Blizz/Met's lock needs to be looked into - saying that, sort out the gemming issue and a lot of this would be sorted. Gemming is just an excuse of not having to update the game with regular items/weaps/armours.

You keep referring to 'end game' but there's only a small % of players who are either there or considered close. Realistically your 'tests' don't really matter, not whilst Gems are still around - a lvl 42 sin can get my 800hp down very quickly and cause me problems if their gear is gemmed to the teeth, same with an archer, hell, same with any class - it's the in game items that cause the unbalance - maybe there are some spells which need revisiting but the bulk of it comes down to the huge difference in stats - I would expect a lvl 50+ chara to easily get my life down with 1 or 2 hits or kill me with no problems, but another class at the same lvl? That just doesn't seem fair to me.

 

[petreet989]

warriors are fat and slo...

Why are you reverting this?

Warriors currently are so OP its stupid

Hitting faster than Sins
Over 1000 HP
Highest AC
SD to avoid all damage
Single attack damage can reach into the 600's (1hit all sins, Archers, Wiz)

 

[Mckimmie]

Who the hell can hit over 600 in one hit on a warrior?

I'd say cap wars aspeed at 6 (real 6 not that bullshit they done the other night)
Let sins hit true 8 speed and fix the flinching.
Take MB down a peg or two and leave everything else.

I've seen plenty wizzies drop sins, plenty sins drop wizzies, plenty wars drop sins, plenty sins drop wars, plenty wars drop wizzies. People are putting too much pressure on the GM's to make drastic changes that don't need made and that's why we got the changes the other night that had to be fixed within a couple of hours. Please take your time with deciding on the changes and test it with users that will add valuable input and not biased idiots.

 

[Razarus]

Who the hell can hit over 600 in one hit on a warrior?

I'd say cap wars aspeed at 6 (real 6 not that bullshit they done the other night)

I have been thinking about this one quite abit, as you do 0.o

I think an easier solution and less detrimental on the warrior overall would be to put a very small cooldown on TDB.
So any warrior with aspeed 6 or less would NOT notice any difference, TDB would still cast at every swing.

However is the warrior had speed 7 or 8. the swings would be slightly too fast for TDB's cooldown, you would end up with a normal hit (possibly a FS for the clever skillful players) every 4-5 (or X hits depending how it works out)

The warrior could still go for speed 8 and use CHM effectively so not to impact their overall play by too much.
They could also spec for how they want to play, speed chm killing or reduced speed higher DC to effectively TDB every hit.

 

[CantTouchThis]

Im all for new ideas but i dont think that ones practical raz. TDB is a warriors main attack, with a cool down they would just do a normal hit which essentially renders them a fly swatter until next hit. FS has a 10 second cooldown so isnt a practical replacement. Also if theres a cool down thats slightly greater than the time between hits at speed7/8, this will mean every other hit will be a non-tdb hit.

Using CHM isnt a viable alternative to TDB, again for the reasons stated above and because TDBing single mobs is still the fastest way to lvl for most warriors. So this would severely impact all warriors.

 

[Muh]

speed 6
lower tdb by 15%
up fs by 15%

 

[Razarus]

Im all for new ideas but i dont think that ones practical raz. TDB is a warriors main attack, with a cool down they would just do a normal hit which essentially renders them a fly swatter until next hit. FS has a 10 second cooldown so isnt a practical replacement. Also if theres a cool down thats slightly greater than the time between hits at speed7/8, this will mean every other hit will be a non-tdb hit.

Using CHM isnt a viable alternative to TDB, again for the reasons stated above and because TDBing single mobs is still the fastest way to lvl for most warriors. So this would severely impact all warriors.

ah fair point at speed 7 it would be every other. did not think that bit through.
Perhaps that isn't such a bad thing? so its an "invisible" speed cap for single target dps.
You would only need to spec speed 6 if you wanted to single target kill.
If you wanted to go CHM'ing you could spec a further 2 speed.

I think peoples main arguments all boil down to being twindrakebladed at speed 7/8, so if it was ineffective to tdb past speed 6 you would not have to mess about with capping at 6 (if they even can cap one class but not the other)


I think CHM in bdd and PT is faster than tdb single targets, most of the highest levels have been doing that. correct me if i'm wrong though as I've not personally recorded exp per hour.

 

[Muh]

Raz schooling Bad on his own class, lulz, but yeah xhm is the fastest way to lvl on a war be it PT or BDD

 

[Jamole]

CHM is ****, only decent 'spell' warriors have is TDB and that's the quickest and most efficient way of lvling.

 

[Razarus]

CHM is ****, only decent 'spell' warriors have is TDB and that's the quickest and most efficient way of lvling.

we are talking aspeed 5-8 100+ dc bud.
chm melts through BDD and PT so fast that its much faster exp due to mass killing than single target numas

 

[Jamole]

we are talking aspeed 5-8 100+ dc bud.
chm melts through BDD and PT so fast that its much faster exp due to mass killing than single target numas

So in order to get the best out of a lvl 37/38 spell you need to spend millions on gemming your gear or get end game items?

 

[Razarus]

So in order to get the best out of a lvl 37/38 spell you need to spend millions on gemming your gear or get end game items?

is that not the same foe every skill? they get better with better stats?

It becomes useful because you can attack low health mobs in a high density area that combined provide more exp than a single target mob.

 

[Jamole]

is that not the same foe every skill? they get better with better stats?

It becomes useful because you can attack low health mobs in a high density area that combined provide more exp than a single target mob.

Ah! So it's not that the skills are over powered it's because of the gear people are wearing that makes them 'over powered'?
Goes back to my original point about stats/gems then

This isn't an 'attack' against you mate, just if what you're saying is true then it contradicts what certain others have been saying about skills being overpowered when in fact damage is down to the kit you are wearing..

Can of worms... opened.

 

[CantTouchThis]

Thats a lot of messing about. Just say you want warrs to be capped at speed 6, thats easier. Again though this is all pointless until sins are fixed and they catch up (just for you muh x). Then we can compare. I highly suspect a lot of this crying about warriors will stop when you guys get a 10-15% dps buff when speed is fixed.

Chming pt is not the quickest way to lvl a warr. Its not slow but its not the fastest, its also only a viable option when its quiet. You often just end up in a fight which wastes time. Or having to range further for lures. Chming bdd cains/flinches a lot, unless you stand against a wall so you only get hit by 5 mobs but then youre not maximising chm. Its also only worth taking the beating from 8 mobs if you can be sure you're gonna kill them quick enough to regain your pots in drops, and without high luck this is unlikely.

Thanks for the advice though :P

 

[Razarus]

Thats a lot of messing about. Just say you want warrs to be capped at speed 6, thats easier.

aye, i'm just thinking it may not be "easier" to cap 1 class but not the other, I'm no coder but I can imagine they are all on one shared "limits" file, so would require building from scratch for the war. maybe. i dunno.
whereas putting a CD that used to be in place anyway on TDB would (again i presume) take a lot less effort and offer exactly the same outcome without effecting chm play style.

I agree though, lets see sins fixed first but just an alternative way of doing it if wars still need a slight nerf.

Jamole, of course stats cause skills to be OP, the scaling of each skill will also be taken into account, but even removing gems and replacing with loads of other items, would those new items not have the same stat as a gemmed item? you would end with the same result, someone wearing 150 dc, aspeed 8.
the items would have to offer progression and thus they would reach the current state of stats.

 

[Jamole]

Raz,
At least with items there is some form of control over who can wear them, for example, you won't have someone the same lvl as you overpowering you simply because they pay to play and can afford to gem themselves silly. If done properly the items wouldn't replace how the gems are currently being used and over the top on stats, it's all relevant to the lvl and thus making lvling important if you want to get higher stats.. that in my opinion offers progress and makes lvling important, at the moment players just aim for 46/48 or 50 then don't bother lvling because they don't need to, they just gem their own gear, sit back and enjoy lvl 3 spells and insane dmg.

At least with the introduction of more items/weaps/armours it will encourage progression whilst providing more balance all round.

It's a pointless discussion anyway as gems will never be removed or altered

 

[Razarus]

I understand where your coming from but it would offer the exact same outcome.
People would pay for leveling services (more so than they already do now) and then you would have anyone who is high level 1 hitting anyone who is lower level.
so you completely play the casual player out of the game, you play the boss hunters out of the game.
If level was everything as you are suggesting the userbase would not be over 10 because NOONE likes leveling.

The balance is always tested when people hit top end stats, granted they hit it long before they should via pay to win but I've always said if something is achievable it will be achieved. if that achievable stat has the potential to unbalance the game then it needs to be tested/removed.


anyways it is what it is and only small changes are likely to be implemented. so lets see what they come up with next.

 

[Jamole]

I'm not saying lvling is everything, but there just doesn't seem to be a reward for it.. an example, I could lvl my ass off to 50 but get dicked by some lvl 44 player simply because they have way more dc and have gems galore. How is that considered 'fair'?

What I was getting at is some form of balance for casual players to stay up to speed and be able to compete, it's not even just casual players that find it difficult, even regular players struggle.

As for lvling services, this is always going to be something that exists, it's up to the server team to monitor and control this.
The points I've mentioned don't impact boss hunters in the slightest. It may affect those soloing end game bosses (which they shouldn't be able to do anyway) but that's about it.

p.s
I'm near enough getting 1 hit at lvl 44 (Warrior) by most high end players so that problem currently exists.

 

[HarryH]

I'm not saying lvling is everything, but there just doesn't seem to be a reward for it.. an example, I could lvl my ass off to 50 but get dicked by some lvl 44 player simply because they have way more dc and have gems galore. How is that considered 'fair'?

What I was getting at is some form of balance for casual players to stay up to speed and be able to compete, it's not even just casual players that find it difficult, even regular players struggle.

As for lvling services, this is always going to be something that exists, it's up to the server team to monitor and control this.
The points I've mentioned don't impact boss hunters in the slightest. It may affect those soloing end game bosses (which they shouldn't be able to do anyway) but that's about it.

p.s
I'm near enough getting 1 hit at lvl 44 (Warrior) by most high end players so that problem currently exists.

Wizards and assassins must level to get the full strength of the class.. as for archer/warrior/taoist they can pretty much reach their peak at level 47

Any level 50 archer/warr/wizz/assassin can 1 shot level 45 and below, that's just due to high level spells and the 49+ accessories which are very juicy.

 

[CantTouchThis]

48 for lvl 3 poison cloud
50 for lvl 3 rage

Just a couple of examples of where other classes also have to lvl.