Alternative to messing with the other 3 classes to balance Advanced Potion Mastery

[holo]

Currently APM is both a throughput increase as well as an efficiency increase. Instead of this, how about making it a pure efficiency increase?

So instead it would increase the HP/MP gained by a larger amount, but it would increase the CD on pots by that same amount.

So currently a warrior can say use a 70HP pot every 2 seconds. Once APM is learnt it would increase it by say 50% at level 3, so it would recover 105HP every 3 seconds. Both ways it heals for the same amount per second, but with the skill it would halve the number of pots used (as well as weight required to do so).


Could also make the skill togglable, so if becomes a throughput increase at a decreased efficiency (say decreases HP gained by 40% but halves the CD? so 42HP restored every second rather than 35HP?) The war would literally be pissing away money at twice the speed, but gain 20% regen rate. Very useful for risky situations, but otherwise keep it turned off or massive waste of cash.

 

[Jamie]

Currently APM is both a throughput increase as well as an efficiency increase. Instead of this, how about making it a pure efficiency increase?

So instead it would increase the HP/MP gained by a larger amount, but it would increase the CD on pots by that same amount.

So currently a warrior can say use a 70HP pot every 2 seconds. Once APM is learnt it would increase it by say 50% at level 3, so it would recover 105HP every 3 seconds. Both ways it heals for the same amount per second, but with the skill it would halve the number of pots used (as well as weight required to do so).


Could also make the skill togglable, so if becomes a throughput increase at a decreased efficiency (say decreases HP gained by 40% but halves the CD? so 42HP restored every second rather than 35HP?) The war would literally be pissing away money at twice the speed, but gain 20% regen rate. Very useful for risky situations, but otherwise keep it turned off or massive waste of cash.

Interesting concept.

 

[UnluckyXIII]

Currently APM is both a throughput increase as well as an efficiency increase. Instead of this, how about making it a pure efficiency increase?

So instead it would increase the HP/MP gained by a larger amount, but it would increase the CD on pots by that same amount.

So currently a warrior can say use a 70HP pot every 2 seconds. Once APM is learnt it would increase it by say 50% at level 3, so it would recover 105HP every 3 seconds. Both ways it heals for the same amount per second, but with the skill it would halve the number of pots used (as well as weight required to do so).


Could also make the skill togglable, so if becomes a throughput increase at a decreased efficiency (say decreases HP gained by 40% but halves the CD? so 42HP restored every second rather than 35HP?) The war would literally be pissing away money at twice the speed, but gain 20% regen rate. Very useful for risky situations, but otherwise keep it turned off or massive waste of cash.

Would the CD reduction make a warrior with enough pots almost unstoppable in PvP/PvE/Bosses (IV pills every 0.5 seconds)? The first part sounds like a different spin on the existing concept but it would require a toggle on/off for APM as not everyone would want the increased CD depending on the situation.

How many warriors have APM at present?

XIII

 

[holo]

Would the CD reduction make a warrior with enough pots almost unstoppable in PvP/PvE/Bosses (IV pills every 0.5 seconds)? The first part sounds like a different spin on the existing concept but it would require a toggle on/off for APM as not everyone would want the increased CD depending on the situation.

How many warriors have APM at present?

XIII

It would give them 20% more hp/sec, at the cost of 100% extra money used. ie, yes they'd survive longer (cept not really as they'd go through pots MUCH faster) but it would really hurt their cash flow.

The first part, everyone should want. It's strictly an efficiency saving. The warrior is healing the same amount per second, it's just costing them a lot less to do so. Granted it doesn't help if he is getting 1 shot in the 3 second window, but that would be where the toggle comes in. Taking fast damage? Use throughput mode. Taking sustained damage? Use efficiency mode. It would take more intelligent gameplay/skill, but that should kind of be the point of games.

There's probably a fair few with APM now, it's just it's so well hidden being a passive skill. The fact Jamie was considering buffing the other 3 classes to compensate should show you how powerful it is. A SDC or tempest, that no one is complaining about as they don't realise.

 

[Sorry]

The ideea is good, but why do you wanna change something that isnt broken? Warriors are extremly good and op on here, why make them even more powerful ?

 

[rayray]

@jamie ADV PM is not the issue

The issue IS EI in pvp....... currently if you removed EI from pvp that would open the door for a global pvp dps reduction.

Currently warr,wiz,sin all do to MUCH dps in pvp... GD hit me on a war for 1500 yesterday.... thats over 3/4 of my hp in 1 hit...... hells/asst/poker can all hit for 1k with thunder storm....warrior can easily hit 1k with dragon rise then a 1.5k bladestorm and of course taos have there pet that hits for 1.5k

Remove EI from pvp and give everyone a global 30%-50% damage reduction it would go a long way to solving the issue's in pvp i believe, would at least make it less of a 1 hit fest.

I cant understand why EI even effects pvp considering it puts 2 classes at a disadvantage vs the non element using classes.

 

[holo]

The ideea is good, but why do you wanna change something that isnt broken? Warriors are extremly good and op on here, why make them even more powerful ?

I imagine you haven't seen a warrior PvP with APM, they are very hard to kill. Check the market for the book. If there's one on it's probably going for 30mil+. Yes warriors are extremely good, and that's probably before they have APM (which the vast majority don't). When you add in APM, well that was why Jamie was seriously considering doubling pot CD. Just consider how powerful APM is currently. It increases both throughput and efficiency, so your pots last longer and you can heal much faster. Survivability goes through the roof when you stack both potion masteries.

This would be a nerf from it's current form, but still powerful in a different way. It's a trade from throughput into efficiency. I don't know about you but I'd rather warriors spend 30% less on pots than have a 30% increase in survivability.

---------- Post Merged at 10:27 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:26 AM ----------

@jamie ADV PM is not the issue

The issue IS EI in pvp....... currently if you removed EI from pvp that would open the door for a global pvp dps reduction.

Currently warr,wiz,sin all do to MUCH dps in pvp... GD hit me on a war for 1500 yesterday.... thats over 3/4 of my hp in 1 hit...... hells/asst/poker can all hit for 1k with thunder storm....warrior can easily hit 1k with dragon rise then a 1.5k bladestorm and of course taos have there pet that hits for 1.5k

Remove EI from pvp and give everyone a global 30%-50% damage reduction it would go a long way to solving the issue's in pvp i believe, would at least make it less of a 1 hit fest.

I cant understand why EI even effects pvp considering it puts 2 classes at a disadvantage vs the non element using classes.

If you lower damage, you make fights last longer, which will make potion mastery even more powerful. This is why it needs to be changed.

 

[DarkSacred]

Altering APM will damage the ability of a Warrior to tank once we enter the level 80+ content.
What class are you holo? What experience do you have playing a warrior at 60+ with APM level 3?

warrior can easily hit 1k with dragon rise then a 1.5k bladestorm

Which warriors are hitting for this? Do you have any screen shots or proof?
As a 60+ warrior stacked full DC (over 200) or full element against an enemy with 5x ele disadvantage the best FS I can hit is around 550, BS caps out under 300 per slice and DR hits around the 450 mark.

 

[Ksx]

Altering APM will damage the ability of a Warrior to tank once we enter the level 80+ content.

Maybe the warriors should learn to do something more than just press the defiance button to tank everything?

 

[DarkSacred]

Maybe the warriors should learn to do something more than just press the defiance button to tank everything?

Which warrior is using Defiance to tank bosses? And why? Its pointless?


Are you a warrior or just spouting ****? Defiance is a levelling skill not one used when taking end game content / bosses. Damage reduction at a 1-1 ratio vs % from ele defence. If I'm fighting a boss I'll be using might for the damage increase never defiance.

 

[Drakay]

Currently APM is both a throughput increase as well as an efficiency increase. Instead of this, how about making it a pure efficiency increase?

So instead it would increase the HP/MP gained by a larger amount, but it would increase the CD on pots by that same amount.

So currently a warrior can say use a 70HP pot every 2 seconds. Once APM is learnt it would increase it by say 50% at level 3, so it would recover 105HP every 3 seconds. Both ways it heals for the same amount per second, but with the skill it would halve the number of pots used (as well as weight required to do so).


Could also make the skill togglable, so if becomes a throughput increase at a decreased efficiency (say decreases HP gained by 40% but halves the CD? so 42HP restored every second rather than 35HP?) The war would literally be pissing away money at twice the speed, but gain 20% regen rate. Very useful for risky situations, but otherwise keep it turned off or massive waste of cash.

In regards to the best part about APM and only reason i've been through 4 books to get it is the added HP on top of the norm.
If you took that away and that meant i just use less pots to recover the same HP per second i don't think i would of bothered lol.

The second idea would mean spending a fortune to increase my recovery rate on top of a fortune i've already spent on books?

 

[holo]

Altering APM will damage the ability of a Warrior to tank once we enter the level 80+ content.
What class are you holo? What experience do you have playing a warrior at 60+ with APM level 3?



Which warriors are hitting for this? Do you have any screen shots or proof?
As a 60+ warrior stacked full DC (over 200) or full element against an enemy with 5x ele disadvantage the best FS I can hit is around 550, BS caps out under 300 per slice and DR hits around the 450 mark.

How so? If it was a toggle between efficiency and basically the same throughput as we have now (with the drawback of double pot usage), then it wouldn't alter the ability to tank at all. As for me, I'm still trying to get the book. Because atm its overpowered as **** as Jamie knows fine well.

In regards to the best part about APM and only reason i've been through 4 books to get it is the added HP on top of the norm.
If you took that away and that meant i just use less pots to recover the same HP per second i don't think i would of bothered lol.

The second idea would mean spending a fortune to increase my recovery rate on top of a fortune i've already spent on books?

Of course you spent an obscene amount of cash getting it, it's amazing. Which is why Jamie was planning to double pot CDs to compensate, and mess with loads of other changes. Jamie thinks something needs to be done to balance the skill, so I was giving an alternative. AFAIK it;s getting nerfed in some manner, I'm just trying to give him creative ideas on how to do it.

As for not bothering to get it, honestly that'd be pretty dumb. A large efficiency saving on pots is pretty huge imo. The point of it being a toggle is you use the efficiency mode to build that fortune, and then toggle it on when you need it to spend that fortune. It takes intelligent gameplay to know when to use it and when not. I imagine it would mostly be for bosses and dangerous lures, but it might lead to less skilled players wasting money. That's imo kind of the stuff you need, to increase the learning curve and make a distinction between good players and bad.

 

[DigitalDevil]

It would give them 20% more hp/sec, at the cost of 100% extra money used. ie, yes they'd survive longer (cept not really as they'd go through pots MUCH faster) but it would really hurt their cash flow.

To some people the 100% more money used is irrelevant if they win the fight/boss, on a server where Lv.70+ people don’t have lots to spend money on but with money widely available cost isn’t really an issue. A Lv.75 Warrior could take around 2000 IV Pills to a fight.... think about how broken that could potentially be with a 0.5s cool-down.... people though it was wrong to watch Ace solo stage 1 of the Lair boss, with this change Warriors will be able to solo pretty much anything.

I think you’ve come up with a cool concept, and appreciate you are trying to think outside of the box but your suggested idea would only improve Warrior OPness not prevent it.

 

[holo]

To some people the 100% more money used is irrelevant if they win the fight/boss, on a server where Lv.70+ people don’t have lots to spend money on but with money widely available cost isn’t really an issue. A Lv.75 Warrior could take around 2000 IV Pills to a fight.... think about how broken that could potentially be with a 0.5s cool-down.... people though it was wrong to watch Ace solo stage 1 of the Lair boss, with this change Warriors will be able to solo pretty much anything.

I think you’ve come up with a cool concept, and appreciate you are trying to think outside of the box but your suggested idea would only improve Warrior OPness not prevent it.

You do realise the current version of APM is basically this (20% throughput), but with no drawback? How can you call adding a drawback (100% cost increase, more bag weight used) a buff to warriors? It's a nerf to one aspect of the skill, but leaving as much of it alone as possible to actually get support from the community. Let's be honest, if it was going to be balanced properly it would be nerfed into the ground, but you'd have a lot of warriors complaining then and Jamie would never hear the end to it. Have enough of them in this thread already, lol.

 

[<SOSO>]

It goes w/o saying but :

If APM gets nerfed, surely Advanced Bloody Flower and Advanced Renounce should get nerfed as well.

Also holo , what's ur IGN ?

 

[DigitalDevil]

@holo From this thread (and your other posts), it feels like you want to change the game to benefit yourself (who are you in game by the way and what level?), if your answer to that isn't Lv.70+ then you aren't really in a position to comment (this is going to turn out you are some level 40-something).

APM should be left alone until the Lv.80+ content is accessible and a judgement based around the higher content can be made, at present people are wanting so many changes and its just going to result in having to rework the entire next patch to adapt it to the alterations made now.

 

[holo]

The only way I would benefit from this is because Jamie wouldn't need to nerf every class into the ground to balance the few wars who have APM. I do want to change the game for the better, there are many things that could happen in Mir that newer games have already tried and developed. Toggle skills have been used in many games, which toggle between a throughput mode and efficiency mode. Mir is just an old game now so latest developments haven't been added, but that's the entire point of this suggestions section to suggest them to Jamie.

As for who I am ingame, I'm not telling people that, don't fancy the abuse for trying to suggest things on here. Bad enough with people on here without bringing it ingame. As for needing to be 70+ to comment, **** off lol. Everyone's opinion is valid. No I'm not some 40 something, I have multiple classes to 50+. I've likely spent more time ingame than most of the 70+s, I just prefer to understand every class so I can speak from experience from all classes, not just the one I main. But frankly even sub 40s have valid opinions on things, because doubling pot CDs to nerf APM (which Jamie was planning to do!) affects them as well.


If APM is necessary for 80+ content (which I'd seriously question on a server with this much MR/AC), it shouldn't be a lvl40 spell that imbalances 40-75 content. AFAIK Jamie plans on nerfing it in some manner, so again, I'm just giving him suggestions on how to do it that wouldn't remove it entirely. If you have another suggestion on how to nerf it then lets hear it? Or do you just like criticising other peoples ideas and can't come up with your own.

 

[Nyx]

I don’t really see any issues with APM, I’m not the best warrior by any means and certainly don’t have the best kit. But APM for me is a nice bonus but it’s not some massive boon that makes me invincible I still regularly die to mobs in higher level content and places like Banyo and West Desert still feel challenging with the newest changes.

Which warriors are you comparing to when stating APM is too over powered and are we talking PvE or PvP? If you’re looking at Molten, Geralt, RaW and Exodus in PvP you’re comparing the elite few of a class with superior items, of course they are going to seem OPed compared to others. Pick the top 5 of any class and it’s the same.

In what way do you currently believe APM is OPed and which areas of the game is it having a detrimental effect? Is it specific to APM or a combination of skills and items coupled with it?

 

[holo]

I don’t really see any issues with APM, I’m not the best warrior by any means and certainly don’t have the best kit. But APM for me is a nice bonus but it’s not some massive boon that makes me invincible I still regularly die to mobs in higher level content and places like Banyo and West Desert still feel challenging with the newest changes.

Which warriors are you comparing to when stating APM is too over powered and are we talking PvE or PvP? If you’re looking at Molten, Geralt, RaW and Exodus in PvP you’re comparing the elite few of a class with superior items, of course they are going to seem OPed compared to others. Pick the top 5 of any class and it’s the same.

In what way do you currently believe APM is OPed and which areas of the game is it having a detrimental effect? Is it specific to APM or a combination of skills and items coupled with it?

Jamie's says its overpowered. Remember all those changes not long ago regarding doubling pot CD? That was because of APM. He was going to mess with every class to nerf APM, so I'm offering an alternative.

I have no idea if it's OP or not (it's entirely subjective, and everyone will have their own opinion), all I'm going off is what the admin says. Frankly it's not our place to say if a skill is OP or not, it's up to the devs. They have far more info on the game and access to all classes at 75+ with great gear.

 

[DarkSacred]

I asked Jamie outright last night on Discord and he didn’t confirm his position on APM. Also wasn’t willing to confirm if he believed it to be OPed either