Recieved word from my domain provider

[NickAKAVexus]

Atom so if I make my mir client connect to another server then that server is doing something wrong?

Your missing the point really, yes what we are doing is wrong people aren't stupid they know what the files do. However they can't do anything to us legally. I'm not forcing people to connect with mir clients am I? Point is they don't own the emulated software, they can not tell me I can't run a piece of software they do not own.

The only people who are breaking the law are those who modify the client to connect to my server.

Untill they change the law and say that any server providing emulated service down to the core will I stop. Even then its hard to make a case, theres tons of peices of software doing the same thing whats to really say its emulating some one else.

 

[MiloFoxburr]

Im curious about something the first release of the euromir3 client had no eula agreement on the installer so I agreed to nothing when I installed it can I legally modify that client? I never actually agreed to there eula and any updates I done where done through there auto patcher which has no eula agreement

 

[TrueADM]

Its illegal to create free software to work with Commercial porducts. Why wont people understand that, Emulators are illegal. Nintendo have won loads of cases on the matter, even though people claim the "24 hours rule" and "Its not illegal if you own the game" protects them.

Now some smart person will say "but atomicide you idioth, ths dosent apply here" Good point you clever person you, it doesnt hold much against the MMORPG industry. However the case of Blizzard vs BNETD does apply here. The case final ruling was the one i stated above, and Blizzard succesfully alunched and won legal action against the developers of BNETD.

This was despite the fact that blizzards BNET system was free anyway, so there was no loss of profit to blizzard. They closed the BNTED down because it was deemed copyright infringement.

The simple fact is, your emulators, allow the legend of mir client to run somewhere else other than the official legend of mir servers. You cant claim running it on just your computer is legal, because it isnt, you cant claim running it for just you and some friends is legal, because is isnt.

The fact your running it for free means **** all, and dont kid yourselves that GN cant sue you, take action, because they can.

WeMade - can sue you for loss of profit, and for copyright infringement. becuase your lowering the desirability of their licences as potential buyers realise people can run illegal copies, and your using their property to enable it.

Game Network - can sue you because they're losing profit from people paying private servers. The actual chance of them being awarded a cash settlement is negligible, but they will more than likely be succesful in shutting you down.

The only flaws you can pick in my arguement are the fact that Emulated software may not be illegal in all forms, but in terms of running online servers for games, well a case has already been disputed and won, and the results were on the favour of the copyright owner.

I was in contact with WeMade before christmas about developing my own emulated client/server software based on the Legend of Mir as a project for university. They said I was free to do it as long as I didn't re-distribute their materials and I caused no interference with their mainstream products. That's how MIR Unleashed started.

 

[Sean]

It's not the legality of this that i'd question - it's the ability and will of Wemade or GN to prosecute.
It's no longer GN's biggest MMO output, you'd have to destroy alot of their business before they lifted a finger, same with Wemade. Although I don't know much about if people have been prosecuted in China or not we haven't heard of anything have we?

 

[Atomicide]

Ive already seen L2J servers, ive already played on them. But you people seriously just wont listen to reason, as far as your concerned your all above the law and are in complete denial that someting could happen to your precious servers.

lets go out on a whim, and all agree that im 100% ****ing wrong. Even then, there still a pretty large chance that if WeMade/GN took you to court over Emulated software they would win the case and a new legal precedent would be set and all your servers would instantly become illegal, with the only way to save them investing your own time and money taking it to the next highest court system to prove it wrong.

[qoute]
I was in contact with WeMade before christmas about developing my own emulated client/server software based on the Legend of Mir as a project for university. They said I was free to do it as long as I didn't re-distribute their materials and I caused no interference with their mainstream products. That's how MIR Unleashed started.[/qoute]

So its ok to do a long as you dont redistribute their materials, and caused no interference with their mainstream products? Excellent.

You do realise they deem running a private server which is in direct competition with their own servers interference with mainstream products? Therefore you have basically said, runing private servers are illegal.

[qoute] I'm not forcing people to connect with mir clients am I?[/qoute]

No your not forcing people to connect, but that doesnt change anything. Stop looking at everything from one angle. This is why you people would get shredded in the courts, because the first reply to that would be "but your providing people with the option of connecting to your server, which is in direct competition with the official ones" add to this the fact that handing out the software to others, handing out your IP address to allow people to connect, and running the software for the purpose of letting people to connect is whats illegal. Hell you can program a Legend of Mir emulator and run it on your laptop inside the WeMade cental ****ing office, they wouldnt care in the slightest, but as soon as a client connects, its a different matter.


If your really want your emulated software to be almost 100% safe then you should

1. make your own client
2. Change the name of the game entirely
3. Use your own graphics/code/soundsetc
4. End all affiliation with this site since advertising it as a mir server is a pretty concrete statement that its a ****ing mir server.

[qoute]REALLY? So, by your definition the IE Google toolbar is in violation, as is MessengerPlus, Adobe Acrobat Viewer IE plugin, so on and so forth.[/qoute]

Obviously there are exceptions to rules, if you want to run the IE google toolbar, you already have to have a copy of the IE software, and guess what? Once you have that software microsoft have their money, so why should they care, nobody is treading on their toes after that. If nobody has a problem with the software running, then its fine, but the obvious point in this case is that somebody does have a problem with the emulated software running....

 

[NickAKAVexus]

Ive already seen L2J servers, ive already played on them. But you people seriously just wont listen to reason, as far as your concerned your all above the law and are in complete denial that someting could happen to your precious servers.

lets go out on a whim, and all agree that im 100% ****ing wrong. Even then, there still a pretty large chance that if WeMade/GN took you to court over Emulated software they would win the case and a new legal precedent would be set and all your servers would instantly become illegal, with the only way to save them investing your own time and money taking it to the next highest court system to prove it wrong.

[qoute]
I was in contact with WeMade before christmas about developing my own emulated client/server software based on the Legend of Mir as a project for university. They said I was free to do it as long as I didn't re-distribute their materials and I caused no interference with their mainstream products. That's how MIR Unleashed started.[/qoute]

So its ok to do a long as you dont redistribute their materials, and caused no interference with their mainstream products? Excellent.

You do realise they deem running a private server which is in direct competition with their own servers interference with mainstream products? Therefore you have basically said, runing private servers are illegal.

[qoute] I'm not forcing people to connect with mir clients am I?[/qoute]

No your not forcing people to connect, but that doesnt change anything. Stop looking at everything from one angle. This is why you people would get shredded in the courts, because the first reply to that would be "but your providing people with the option of connecting to your server, which is in direct competition with the official ones" add to this the fact that handing out the software to others, handing out your IP address to allow people to connect, and running the software for the purpose of letting people to connect is whats illegal. Hell you can program a Legend of Mir emulator and run it on your laptop inside the WeMade cental ****ing office, they wouldnt care in the slightest, but as soon as a client connects, its a different matter.


If your really want your emulated software to be almost 100% safe then you should

1. make your own client
2. Change the name of the game entirely
3. Use your own graphics/code/soundsetc
4. End all affiliation with this site since advertising it as a mir server is a pretty concrete statement that its a ****ing mir server.

[qoute]REALLY? So, by your definition the IE Google toolbar is in violation, as is MessengerPlus, Adobe Acrobat Viewer IE plugin, so on and so forth.[/qoute]

Obviously there are exceptions to rules, if you want to run the IE google toolbar, you already have to have a copy of the IE software, and guess what? Once you have that software microsoft have their money, so why should they care, nobody is treading on their toes after that. If nobody has a problem with the software running, then its fine, but the obvious point in this case is that somebody does have a problem with the emulated software running....

lol your still missing the point, they can't do anything about a peice of software i'm running on my computer. However if i'm giving out the client on my website then yes they can get me for that but its also why I said mirror your client instead of hosting it yourself. I think instead of saying i'm only looking at it from one angle maybe you are? Giving out my ip address is not illegal. If you really want to be cautious you don't have to say "heres my ip use the client download to play" get me? Theres so many ways you can get past the law.

If they were to bring me to court they could make up some crap so yes I probably would need to make a valid case.

 

[Atomicide]

Aside from the arguing above, the simple fact is GN are just throwing out some simple scare tactics at random people.

Despite what ive said, and questions over legality and such of Emulators etc, there is no real gain for WeMade/GN to take legal action becuase the small impact it will have will not really increase their profits at all. Most of the people here wont pay for Mir anyway, and if one server is shut down by them Emulator or not, then every other server will just move underground.

The fact its possible to win, doesnt mean they will win, and losing the case making a reverse in the law wont just affect Mir, but every other game they prodcuce, because if emulators of Mir were found to be Legal, so would emulators for all other games.

I know they've argued with RaGEZONE before and that didnt work out any better for them, which is why they havent tried this time, becuase they lost that arguement, and weakened their "threat" when they did. So this time theyve targetted a different *big* server and hoped that Scorp would panic and close his server, and that would scare everyone else into doing the same.

BTW scorpian if you read this, can u PM me a copy of this persons E-mail address so i can find out exactly what his/her agenda is and have an arguement with them?

 

[Atomicide]

If they were to bring me to court they could make up some crap so yes I probably would need to make a valid case.

The one problem you face is the fact these cases are basically a lottery. Most Judges are over 50 years old at least, and most of them think computers are for Mircosoft office and E-mails, and the internet is a pornograhpy archive, and somewhere viruses come from.

If you go to court the chances are you would lose purely because all the prosecution has to do is claim your a "software hacker" and say "He has programming skills which could easily be used to make viruses" any sort of bull**** like that and the judge instantly thinks your a threat.

There is no watertight case in this area because these cases havent been circulating the courts for long. Thats another reason why legal action isnt taken often, because like ive said before, if you win the case against them, their ****ed, at least untill they can launch an appeal, and by losing the following things happen.

1. You can 100% run an emulated server for commercial gain
2. If the decision is overturned, they have no legal right to sue, because the money you earned was done so within the law.
3. You would have to stop charging for your server (if you did) but the case ruling would probably be a compromise that you could run the software as long as you didnt profit from it.

 

[LeoCrasher]

Ive already seen L2J servers, ive already played on them. But you people seriously just wont listen to reason, as far as your concerned your all above the law and are in complete denial that someting could happen to your precious servers.

I hardly think a thread enquiring on the subject constitutes denial.

lets go out on a whim, and all agree that im 100% ****ing wrong. Even then, there still a pretty large chance that if WeMade/GN took you to court over Emulated software they would win the case and a new legal precedent would be set and all your servers would instantly become illegal, with the only way to save them investing your own time and money taking it to the next highest court system to prove it wrong.

Such a large chance? The legal precedent has already BEEN set. They can't prosecute from the angle of emulation, do you understand? Their ONLY options are trademark/copyright infringement - and this will only apply until new developments are complete. You really think they don't have a few people working on this exact problem for their entire MMO range? The only people they have sued is Shanda fcs!

You do realise they deem running a private server which is in direct competition with their own servers interference with mainstream products? Therefore you have basically said, runing private servers are illegal.

Did TrueADM even mention his intention or marketing strategy. No - your pulling at straws.

add to this the fact that handing out the software to others, handing out your IP address to allow people to connect, and running the software for the purpose of letting people to connect is whats illegal.

In all cases involving emulation, handing out emulated software is LEGAL, handing out your IP for purposes of connection is LEGAL, and running the software for the same reason is LEGAL. L2J does all of this and you've apparently played it. Explain how they mystically get away with the same things you deem illegal.

Hell you can program a Legend of Mir emulator and run it on your laptop inside the WeMade cental ****ing office, they wouldnt care in the slightest, but as soon as a client connects, its a different matter.

No its not. If the client is using equally emulated software+non-wemade property it is not a legal issue. We've already established the problems with existing 1.4-1.9 servers, and do not need you to confuse whats already been said by people like myself.

If your really want your emulated software to be almost 100% safe then you should

Woah a sec, so now your saying you can make emulated software safe. However the entire bulk of your last post was saying that emulated software was illegal. Make your mind up.

The one problem you face is the fact these cases are basically a lottery. Most Judges are over 50 years old at least, and most of them think computers are for Mircosoft office and E-mails, and the internet is a pornograhpy archive, and somewhere viruses come from.

The judge is irrelevant. Even though the laws which have arised and been decided upon have not yet arised within EU states, this doesn't mean the judge won't take notice of them when presented by the defence. Your sterotyping and ignoring the processes each side is likely to go through.

If you go to court the chances are you would lose purely because all the prosecution has to do is claim your a "software hacker" and say "He has programming skills which could easily be used to make viruses" any sort of bull**** like that and the judge instantly thinks your a threat.

Depends on the court obviously. Any half decent defence would laugh that attack down, as would any judge worth his salery.

There is no watertight case in this area because these cases havent been circulating the courts for long. Thats another reason why legal action isnt taken often, because like ive said before, if you win the case against them, their ****ed, at least untill they can launch an appeal, and by losing the following things happen.

They haven't been circulating in EU courts at all. I've already informed users of the likely consequences of court action - or have you completely ignored by polite instruction to read the stickies. But do you honestly think a UK/EU case/statute wouldn't take note of similar persuasive cases elsewhere? You'd be wrong.

/Leo

 

[stephenking]

soz for not reading 8 pages i cba tbh tho i read first page and as scorp asked i personaly think its only your webdomain they are talking about as its that similar to theres that they could take legal action i think its only this and not about the server itself i could be wrong offcourse

 

[MentaL]

YEah you are all debating something now which is pointless.

 

[TrueADM]

You do realise they deem running a private server which is in direct competition with their own servers interference with mainstream products? Therefore you have basically said, runing private servers are illegal.

They allowed me the usage of Legend of Mir 2 graphics and sound, I wasn't allowed to claim ownership of them and I wasn't allowed to redistribute their client/artwork to anyone else. I never said I had a server, as that would suggest I'm intentending on hosting a private server - to WeMade I was just developing a university project for a small community.

I also had to state in my work that I wasn't affiliated with WeMade and that all my work was my 'own game' rather than a Legend of Mir private server; thus I made my own client.

I showed them screenshots, around February, and they were interested in my progress, so I doubt that considered me as competetion.

 

[Atomicide]

They allowed me the usage of Legend of Mir 2 graphics and sound, I wasn't allowed to claim ownership of them and I wasn't allowed to redistribute their client/artwork to anyone else. I never said I had a server, as that would suggest I'm intentending on hosting a private server - to WeMade I was just developing a university project for a small community.

I also had to state in my work that I wasn't affiliated with WeMade and that all my work was my 'own game' rather than a Legend of Mir private server; thus I made my own client.

I showed them screenshots, around February, and they were interested in my progress, so I doubt that considered me as competetion.

Of course they dont consider you competition, you havent released anything yet, but if you do release and develop the server further, and open/distribute the server software for the purpose of people connecting to it to play mir for free, then you will be considered competition.

 

[Atomicide]

Woah a sec, so now your saying you can make emulated software safe. However the entire bulk of your last post was saying that emulated software was illegal. Make your mind up.

Hi, i would just like to point out the sarcasm with the part of my post your qouted on this point. If you had managed to read the points further down, you would have realise that by following them, you would actually have a game thats 100% your own work, thus making a server/client that is some otehr game and not legend of mir, and NOT an emulator at all....

 

[LeoCrasher]

@Atom
No. Once again your wrong. I guess my systematic brakedown of almost every single one of your points isn't enough.

1. make your own client = Np, long as it interoperates with MIR servers
2. Change the name of the game entirely = Np, I'll call it bobland
3. Use your own graphics/code/soundsetc = Np, new gfx
4. End all affiliation with this site since advertising it as a mir server is a pretty concrete statement that its a ****ing mir server. = Np, I'll advertise it as 'bobland' elsehwere.

I now have a client branded 'bobland' which interoperates with EuroMIR servers. Your hints don't reveal anything about a new game at all. I think your out of your depth. Swinging from point to point as you lose valid angles.

/Leo

 

[Atomicide]

You know in your quest to argue and prove your points right, your doing just the same as im doing. By the way one of the points in your re-assuring sticky links to a paper submitted about Software Emulation of Hardware. The mention of Software Emulation of Software is kinda skimmed over in it, and the point the guy makes is that theres no definate law for it.

"Any developer who wants to reverse-egineer some piece of software in order to write an emulator and not transgress the law (in EU, from 1993 onwards at least) has to be a legal owner of a copy of a program"

Taken from one of the links you provided in your reassurance post. Nobody in here has ever been the legal owner of the legend of mir server, and im sure the EULA covers the client itself.

So the question now is what constitutes reverse engineering? Obviously if someone has decompiled the server software itself, thats obviosuly illegal. You cant pass it by saying "i fixed up the broken source code" or something because you shouldnt have had the source code anyway. Somewhere along the line the server software has been reverse engineered, regardless of who has done it, and how people got hold of it.

Now obviously this is an EU enforced law, so its possible WeMade cant touch you there, but GN may be able to on their behalf.

Also, it would be nice if you stopped thinking of me as some asshole who is trying to scare monger people into quitting servers cos ive already said the liklihood of them actually doing anything isnt worth thinking about at all. What i dont want is people sitting behind rose tinted glasses 24/7 and IF something does happen going into court and saying "its emulated lol itz legal guy roffle" If the people on here are rich enough to pay for a Civil dispute laywer to fight their case (up top £120 an hour - average of about £70) then obviously they can pretend what the want and have their lawyer argue it for them. If something does happen your looking at litigation with WeMade/GN and you will be representing yourself.

Litigation involves coming to an agreement and you would be asked to stop your server, close your site, surrender anything of importance, and also work on their behalf to provide names, e-mail addresses, contact details of other people like yourself and testify against them if it came to it.

Also, like ive said, i could be 100% wrong about everything, but the simple fact remains, law is subject to change, and they could take you to court with a weak case, win, and suddenly Leocrashers sticky would be meaningless. The chances of it happening are almost 0, and the chance anything said here will be relevant is 0.

In a court it would be a simple matter of the judge asking why WeMade/GN/whoever, has left it this long to do something about it (5 years or so) some bull**** answer from them, and your case is already 90% over. However they have asked you to stop and given you warning, and chosing to ignore it removes your chance to plead "ignorance". Also "some guys on the site i go to said it was ok" isnt a valid defence either.

 

[Martyn]

make a little screen before you enter site, saying workin for law enforcement, govement, gn etc, are forbiden too view this site. please leave now..

etc etc
if you find the right acts, add them on there.

amd rofl that that site selling other games on it.. WoW etc.

 

[Zidio]

Zidio, Learn to use paragraphs.

Hay guys erm DataForce learn to stop bullying ur main victim! otherwise! ! ! ! ! !! ! ! <<<<< yes exactly i dont need paragraphs omg banned for not useing paragraphs >.< whats this place coming to also whom removed some of my posts? :@ :mooned: :middle: :mooned: :mooned:

tara - queen of all sex